Electric car ownership

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swee'pea99

Legendary Member
One way I have viewed EV car ownership is that it is a little different from an internal combustion car ownership.

Petrol or diesel, you have servicing, and what boils down to consumables that can be quite expensive.
Most modern cars aren’t really home mechanic friendly.
Here goes.
Dual Mass Flywheel
Diesel particulate filter
Oil
Oil filter
Cam belt every 4 years or so.
Had the ERG valve go after three years on my diesel.
Plus you have to keep buying expensive fuel , compared to cheaper electricity.

We were driving about 8,000 miles a year. This was burning up about £900 a year literally. Say £250 for normal servicing, without anything extra.
Call it £1100.

Same 8,000 miles a year. Electricity cost ( even if you bought all your energy from the grid at £0.16p),£320 !
Servicing, even at a main dealer is about £120 per year.
None of the above potential issues with running the car ever.
Call it £450 a year.

The older a car gets, the more servicing it requires, even the brakes last around 80,000 miles due to the regen braking.

Apart from the environmental side, if your driving short distances and have access to home charging, then you can save a lot.

Agree about the high cost at new, but there are EV cars used at about the same price I paid.

Understand that not everyone can afford to splash out the cash, I couldn’t for a long time, three children and family commitments.
Of course the crucial figure missing from those cash calculations is depreciation. I honestly don't know how it compares for electric v conventional, but I do know that when new cars lose thousands per year, £1100 v £450 is not really the issue.
 
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Denis99

Denis99

Über Member
Location
South Wales
The depreciation used to be quite bad until the government started the warnings about diesel bans and city centre bans.

The depreciation has held up quite well since the bd news about diesel manufacture etc.

The only reason I would want to sell our EV in the next 8years would be to have more range.

It’s always difficult to judge the marketplace on depreciation, think that’s part of the increase in PCP deals.
 

ianrauk

Tattooed Beat Messiah
Location
Rides Ti2
@dennis, Sorry for coming across as negative, I've enjoyed your posts and found them illuminating, now that the range problem is pretty much solved for most then it's just the financial one left.:smile:

I still think it's scooters that would free up cities and if something like this was UK a road legal, I'd buy one.

View attachment 428511
Saw one of those only the other day in London. I did wonder what it was. It could shift.
 

perplexed

Guru
Location
Sheffield
I understand that when an electric car is charged at a public recharging station, there is a fee per hour or whatever...

Out of interest, and I stand to be corrected, but if I'm right, I understand that this isn't the case with Tesla? I'm sure I read somewhere that once you've bought a Tesla (and they ain't cheap) you can charge up at a Tesla station and it's all included in the purchase price. Obviously I may be talking nonsense, and this is leaving out whatever we may or may not think of Musk...
 

nickyboy

Norven Mankey
But with technological advances, along with possible obsolescence, that depreciation may not slow? I only do short distances, including car & scooter/motorbike, I do about 5000 miles a year, I am ideal for an electric vehicle, but my car is will increase in value to cover all running costs, likewise my 1962 scooter, and my daily 125cc commuter with rock solid residual value does 100mpg+ with all in running costs last year (fuel, insurance, tax, mot & maintenance) of £270. I'd happily go electric if it wasn't going to cost me a fortune!

Anyway.......... road congestion, seismic change in attitude needed, environmental concerns........why are (regular short journey) electric car drivers choosing to be inside the same old metal oversized cages instead of using electric scooters?
Cos cars keep you dry when it rains, keep you warm when it's cold and cool when it's hot. If you're involved in a collision in a car you're much less likely to be injured than on a scooter

On the subject of electric car range. The idea that we should just "manage" our longer journeys to accommodate recharging is laughable. This is a key hurdle to take up. If you want mass take up the technology will have to meet much greater range expectations than 80 miles (or have say 5 minute charging)
 

Bollo

Failed Tech Bro
Location
Winch
The reason I commute by scooter or motorbike is so that I don't spend so much time queuing in my terribly congested commute. What was an hour is now 15/20 minutes. And because it's simply a commute to work and back, I want to do it as cheap as possible, if an electric scooter was cheaper then I'd buy one, but both my two wheelers are far cheaper for me to run. I forgot to add that the Vespa doesn't require an MOT or tax.

I'm no luddite, I tried the electric bike route for a while and I'd definitely have an electric car if they made financial sense to me but at the moment there seems to be an imbalance in the market skewed perhaps by the pcp deals. Cars are so cheap now that an average earner, family man can buy a 2009/2010 Focus for £2k, with bit of luck he'll get 5 years problem free motoring and be left with few hundred as residual value, that's cheap transportation!

There is an Tesla outlet in a Leeds centre arcade, often with a display model outside, but I've never seen one on the roads, however I went to Amsterdam in the spring and it was full of Tesla taxis, their infrastructure must be way ahead. I'd like this.:okay:

View attachment 428509
There was a time when I might have considered a Tesla, but it looks like (no pun intended) the wheels are coming off a bit. As well as supply issues and concerns about factory conditions, Elon Musk's behaviour is looking increasingly batpoo. He's in trouble for stock manipulation with the US regulators after he announced that he was going to take Tesla private and he's got into this bizarre feud with one of the Thai cave rescuers. It ain't doing his or Tesla's image any good at all.

https://www.theguardian.com/technol...-cave-rescue-is-child-rapist-without-evidence

A Nissan Leaf sounds a safer bet!
 

KneesUp

Guru
AThe average car journey is single digit miles with a single occupant. The only reason more people don't switch are sumply excuses.
I'd suggest that single-digit-mile journeys with a single occupant should, for the vast majority of adults who are lucky enough to enjoy good health, not involve any form of motorised vehicle - and definitely not a motorised vehicle designed specifically for that purpose. Walk if you can, cycle if you'd rather, get the bus if the powers that be can stop being so shortsighted.

I would guess that over the past 3 months the average length of one of my car journeys is longer than the 80 mile range the OP suggests - with some days of c.400 miles - because I just don't use it for short journeys.

I would love to see an analysis of the environmental cost of building the electric car and batteries, and the panels and all the stuff that is needed to make it work versus riding my bike around town and using a 10 year old petrol car for long journeys.
 

mustang1

Legendary Member
Location
London, UK
I'd suggest that single-digit-mile journeys with a single occupant should, for the vast majority of adults who are lucky enough to enjoy good health, not involve any form of motorised vehicle - and definitely not a motorised vehicle designed specifically for that purpose. Walk if you can, cycle if you'd rather, get the bus if the powers that be can stop being so shortsighted.

I would guess that over the past 3 months the average length of one of my car journeys is longer than the 80 mile range the OP suggests - with some days of c.400 miles - because I just don't use it for short journeys.

I would love to see an analysis of the environmental cost of building the electric car and batteries, and the panels and all the stuff that is needed to make it work versus riding my bike around town and using a 10 year old petrol car for long journeys.

People might think to walk a few miles takes too long. On a bike it's shorter but depends on weather. Public transport means waiting for a bus. Car is so convenient. Need to take that convenience away to make people not use cars. To take convenience away, need to increase car-related fees and taxes. To do that, government will lose voters. So the incentive isn't there.

Then theres the enivenviron impact of an electric car versus using a 10 year old petrol (or even diesel) car: driving an electric car in my back yard keeps the air in my back yard clean, even though building the electric car causes bad environment impact in which ever country the car is built. But I the west, we don't care much about that and can even feel smug using carbon offsets (that's a joke in itself) .
 
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Denis99

Denis99

Über Member
Location
South Wales
@KneesUp
Surely the point is that your 10 year old car had an environmental impact when it was first manufactured , just the same a sany vehicle really, electric cars, motorbikes, ships, planes.....

The issue here is that , hopefully, moving more to renewable energy sources, solar, wind, turbine, then the electric car is better for the environment.

The problem with all internal combustion engine vehicles is that not only does it have an impact on the environment when manufactured,( like an electric car), but it relies on fossil fuels being dug out of the ground and then burnt into the environment.

The environmental impact is high.

Emissions into the atmosphere, carbon deposits in populated and congestion areas , and the noise pollution from the vehicles themselves.

We need to change alot of things, fossil fuels are disappearing fast.
 
Until last year, I'd been car free for 6 years. However, with a planned amalgamation of 3 properties into 1 over an 18 month period, it meant I would have to get a vehicle to deal with all the moving of stuff between properties, charity shops & the tip. And more importantly, I'd also want something to carry our bikes in the future.

As I've mentioned on a another thread, I ended up getting a Nissan eNV200 as it was the only vehicle which had the load space and was electric. Basically it a van but with the innards of a 24kWh Leaf.

DSC_0791 (1).JPG


4,000 litres of space in total, which has come in very handy.

Driving in London in the summer, I can get over 100 miles out of it. In the depths of winter, when it's raining, at night with a fierce headwind on the motorway at 65 mph, I might get 60 miles.

So yes, range anxiety can be a thing, at the moment *. However, 68% of all car journeys are for 5 miles or less (and even more shocking is that 24% are under 1 mile). So yes, there should be far more Government intervention to force people not to use any cars at all for shorter journeys, and to walk & cycle more. Sadly, that just isn't going to happen in the UK.

As stated above, very few people do drive long distances. So for the majority of car drivers, an electric car would fulfil the vast majority of their driving. So an increasing trend in the normal 2 car household would be to use one conventional powered car for the longer once a year long distance holiday. But with planning, it can be all done with electric cars. In May I went up to the Isle of Skye to get married, with the trip up spread over 2 days. We stopped every 60 miles or so for a 25-30 minute break to recharge the car, and we're back up to Scotland again in a week's time.

However, the other crazy aspect is that with 90% of all private car purchases being via PCP, it's made cars much cheaper to own, and so people have got accustomed to getting a new car every 2-3 years which further encourages a waste of resources. So of course comparing a brand new EV against a 10 year old petrol car means the old car wins hands down on a sustainability and cost front. So I quite understand those who would want to keep old cars going, as that's better overall than buying a new car you don't actually need.


* Bigger batteries are being introduced all the time, with 40kWh being the minimum now, with 64kWh also appearing. Something like the new Hyundai Kona in the long range 64kWh version will do 250 miles on the motorway which will help allay a lot people's concerns.
 

KneesUp

Guru
@KneesUp
Surely the point is that your 10 year old car had an environmental impact when it was first manufactured , just the same a sany vehicle really, electric cars, motorbikes, ships, planes......
Yes, it did - that's part of my point, really. My car is 10 years old, but mechanically and aesthetically it's sound, so I would like to see how continuing to run it (because it's not as efficient in fuel use as a more modern car) compares to the environmental impact of scraping it and replacing it with a freshly manufactured car. With my car the environmental 'hit' of making it has been spread over it's 10 year (and counting) life. I would guess that it could go on for another 10 without much more than servicing. Is that better or worse than scraping it and replacing it, from an environmental perspective?
 
I understand that when an electric car is charged at a public recharging station, there is a fee per hour or whatever...

Out of interest, and I stand to be corrected, but if I'm right, I understand that this isn't the case with Tesla? I'm sure I read somewhere that once you've bought a Tesla (and they ain't cheap) you can charge up at a Tesla station and it's all included in the purchase price. Obviously I may be talking nonsense, and this is leaving out whatever we may or may not think of Musk...

They're phasing it out for newer owners. A lot of existing owners do have free charging and can get referral codes, but new owners now get an annual allowance and then have to pay for the excess, and when the Model 3 rolls out in the UK in 2019, owners of that will all have to pay.

Tesla are a bit of a special case anyway, as they've built a network of chargers exclusively for their cars. Some of the ones at motorway service areas have rows of 12-16 chargers, which is incredible bearing in mind most other providers only have 1 or 2 chargers per location. That's another argument for getting bigger batteries, to avoid the possibility of turning up at a charger which is in use.

In Scotland, most public charging is free courtesy of the Scottish Government, although that's slowly being reduced. Generally in the UK public rapid chargers (which provide an 80% charge in 30-45 minutes) cost between 10.8p to 30p per kW depending upon network. At home I can obviously charge up overnight (don't have solar unfortunately). Typically to do 100 miles might cost me £3.60. I've seen some figures which said as a rough ballpark, it's equivalent to 200 mpg.
 

KneesUp

Guru
People might think to walk a few miles takes too long. On a bike it's shorter but depends on weather. Public transport means waiting for a bus. Car is so convenient. Need to take that convenience away to make people not use cars. To take convenience away, need to increase car-related fees and taxes. To do that, government will lose voters. So the incentive isn't there.
Public transport doesn't have to be inconvenient - it is in this country because the Tory party decided that it was perfectly reasonable to expect private companies to run a public service for profit and yet it still to be run in the public interest. I write this from a city where it costs £1.20 for my child to get the bus the three miles to town, whereas pre-privitisaiton it would have been 2p (5p with inflation taken into account between 1987 and now).

Other European countries run buses and trams so frequently and at such a low cost that it's ridiculous not to use them. In the UK we run buses and trams so infrequently and at such a high price that it's rarely anyone's first choice. Apart from London, of course. In London the public transport is half decent. It's no coincidence that it's controlled by TfL, a local government body, not a private company.
 
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