Stephenite
Membå
- Location
- OslO
I'd like a BMW i3.
Here's one in LAPD colours:
Here's one in LAPD colours:
Electric car ownership
- Thread starter Denis99
- Start date
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slowmotion
Quite dreadful
- Location
- lost somewhere
Electricity comes at a cost. If it comes from fossil fuels, that is what an electric car is using. The fossil fuel generating station might not be on your doorstep, but it's on somebody else's. Efficient small petrol/diesel engines use less fossil fuel than "eco" electric ones. Sometimes the electricity might come from wind, hydro, or nuclear, but it's probably from oil or gas.
"Feeling smug about your electric car is like feeling smug about training your dog to crap on somebody else's lawn".
"Feeling smug about your electric car is like feeling smug about training your dog to crap on somebody else's lawn".
steveindenmark
Legendary Member
Its a bit like electric bikes when it comes to concerns.
Range. Charging time. Initial cost.
When the cars charged and running I am sure its fine. Just like an electric bike.
But if governments were serious about cleaning up greenhouse gases, they would be subsidising people who wanted to have electric cars. They are beyond many peoples price range.
Range. Charging time. Initial cost.
When the cars charged and running I am sure its fine. Just like an electric bike.
But if governments were serious about cleaning up greenhouse gases, they would be subsidising people who wanted to have electric cars. They are beyond many peoples price range.
OP
OP
Denis99
Über Member
- Location
- South Wales
As I said, its not for everyone due to some of the range and charging issues at present.
But you would be surprised to see how much of the energy comes from renewable sources already.
http://grid.energynumbers.info/
With the panels and the battery, the vast majority of the energy comes straight off my roof.
Buying any car new is always going to lead to a great deal of depreciation. Agree on the congestion, see one of my posts above.
But you would be surprised to see how much of the energy comes from renewable sources already.
http://grid.energynumbers.info/
With the panels and the battery, the vast majority of the energy comes straight off my roof.
Buying any car new is always going to lead to a great deal of depreciation. Agree on the congestion, see one of my posts above.
PaulSB
Squire
- Location
- Chorley, Lancashire
As someone who would buy an electric car but who believes he cannot afford to I'd like to ask you this. Currently the Tekna is advertised at a list price of £28,340, I imagine some negotiation would be possible, and on the basis of your price above will devalue by 50% in 12 months. This seems crazy to me if these cars are the sound investment for the longterm we are led to believe they are.
I know the vast majority of my journeys are under 80 miles but charging at home is an issue alongside the long journey problem.
Stephenite
Membå
- Location
- OslO
Norway does just that.
OP
OP
Denis99
Über Member
- Location
- South Wales
If you have off street parking then charging isn't that big of a problem most of the time.
If the work place had charge points, then people could charge whilst in work.
If public cr parks had charge points.....
Range isn't really that big of a deal most of the time, who really needs to have a potential range of 350 miles worth of petrol or diesel in their car all the time, yes, I know some people commute long distances and reps etc, but a great deal of folk don't.
Whats needed is a change in direction.
Traffic pollution, traffic noise, congestion,
The initial cost of the EV cars is still very high, but with PCP and their like, most people just have a car for three years or so these days.
If the work place had charge points, then people could charge whilst in work.
If public cr parks had charge points.....
Range isn't really that big of a deal most of the time, who really needs to have a potential range of 350 miles worth of petrol or diesel in their car all the time, yes, I know some people commute long distances and reps etc, but a great deal of folk don't.
Whats needed is a change in direction.
Traffic pollution, traffic noise, congestion,
The initial cost of the EV cars is still very high, but with PCP and their like, most people just have a car for three years or so these days.
biggs682
Itching to get back on my bike's
- Location
- Northamptonshire
i have a question for all you plug in Car owners , when you use a public charging point do you have to pay for the charge ?
i presume you do but just wondered
i presume you do but just wondered
OP
OP
Denis99
Über Member
- Location
- South Wales
Yes, the price varies, it can be time based or energy used based.
swee'pea99
Legendary Member
[QUOTE 5371004, member: 9609"]the only way you can do that is to use less[/QUOTE]
Smaller, lighter cars. However they're powered. Shoving less metal around the surface of the planet is the only way to go. As Mr Drago said upthread:
Smaller, lighter cars. However they're powered. Shoving less metal around the surface of the planet is the only way to go. As Mr Drago said upthread:
Last edited:
Up until next week I work for a company that supplies software to wholesale energy generators, consumers and brokers, so all this sits a little in my bailiwick. Prepare yourselves.....
TL;DR;
It's complicated.
The long version - settle yourselves down.
Despite the hype about battery technology, power (electricity) can't yet be stored in quantities that make a large difference to the grid, so has to be generated as required. Pumped hydro facilities like Dinorwig Power Station in Wales do store power, but these are usually used to meet peak exceptional demands and have a high associated market price.
This means that power has to be generated as required and there needs to be sufficient capacity in the system to meet demand. The UK power system (the grid) operates as a market where Generators (people with the power stations, turbines etc) agree to supply Suppliers (wholesale energy providers like the 'big six') with a certain amount of power at a certain time, based on forecasts of requirement. This can happen literally years in advance, but continues to be refined with better forecasts as a particular point of delivery approaches. The price for these longer term contracts is agreed between the generator and supplier based on a private contract.
There are also open markets and auctions to buy and sell future power generation capacity. The prices on these markets are driven by the usual supply and demand 'rules'.
The important thing about this mechanism is that, although the generator and supplier have a bilateral arrangement, the actual power generated at the required time is not delivered to the supplier. Instead it's put on the grid and taken off by whoever needs it.
The problem with this is that, if any of the suppliers hasn't forecast their requirements correctly (and they won't!) or the generator can't produce the power then there may be a glut or shortage of power on the grid. This leads to an unstable supply, brown outs, power cuts, riots and zombies.
All hail the 'System Operator' aka National Grid. It's the system operator's job to balance the supply and demand at short notice across the grid. To manage this, generators are required to report their final expected power generator an hour before the time of delivery. Some generators can also offer to generate more (or less) at short notice at a price to tweak the power on the grid and balance the system. This is known as the Balancing Mechanism. When delivery time comes, the System Operator will ask selected generators to modify their output to match supply and demand based on price, but also generator characteristics (how quickly can they fire up) and sometimes location.
The point of all this waffle is that what makes a good source of power isn't just the amount of power that can be generated. This market mechanism was implemented around 2000, when renewables were an insignificant part of the energy mix. Although there have been revisions to the various pricing and engagement mechanism, the market is still biased (IMO) towards traditional energy generation sources that can provide predictable output at any given time. For example, the economics of nuclear power look very shaky in terms of price per unit, but the market 'likes' a source that chugs away at 800MW day and night as it provides a baseload that can be bought and sold years in advance. Wind and solar are both capable of generating power at lower cost and fewer subsidies, but the market as it's currently constructed probably hasn't worked out how to fully handle the unpredictability (or cost-in environment impact in any real sense, but that's another debate).
Ignoring environmental concerns, the gold standard is still gas, as it can generate large amounts of power predictably AND ramp up and down generation at short notice, something nuclear can't do and you can only do with coal with difficulty (I think Drax has a mechanism, but that's second hand 'knowledge').
So, when it comes to where your electricity is coming from, there's a crude hierarchy of engagement as demand ramps up...
Nuclear and coal (always-on, fixed generation 'baseload', price is hedged long-term)
Renewables (difficult to predict availability, complex pricing but potentially low)
Gas (available, predictable and responsive, more volatile market pricing)
Interconnectors (buying excess power from our European chums)
Short Term Stores (can only deal with demand peaks, usually expensive)
As of Q1 2018, Gas was the UK's largest source of energy (36TWh), followed by renewables (19TWh) and Nuclear (15TWh).
TL;DR;
It's complicated.
The long version - settle yourselves down.
Despite the hype about battery technology, power (electricity) can't yet be stored in quantities that make a large difference to the grid, so has to be generated as required. Pumped hydro facilities like Dinorwig Power Station in Wales do store power, but these are usually used to meet peak exceptional demands and have a high associated market price.
This means that power has to be generated as required and there needs to be sufficient capacity in the system to meet demand. The UK power system (the grid) operates as a market where Generators (people with the power stations, turbines etc) agree to supply Suppliers (wholesale energy providers like the 'big six') with a certain amount of power at a certain time, based on forecasts of requirement. This can happen literally years in advance, but continues to be refined with better forecasts as a particular point of delivery approaches. The price for these longer term contracts is agreed between the generator and supplier based on a private contract.
There are also open markets and auctions to buy and sell future power generation capacity. The prices on these markets are driven by the usual supply and demand 'rules'.
The important thing about this mechanism is that, although the generator and supplier have a bilateral arrangement, the actual power generated at the required time is not delivered to the supplier. Instead it's put on the grid and taken off by whoever needs it.
The problem with this is that, if any of the suppliers hasn't forecast their requirements correctly (and they won't!) or the generator can't produce the power then there may be a glut or shortage of power on the grid. This leads to an unstable supply, brown outs, power cuts, riots and zombies.
All hail the 'System Operator' aka National Grid. It's the system operator's job to balance the supply and demand at short notice across the grid. To manage this, generators are required to report their final expected power generator an hour before the time of delivery. Some generators can also offer to generate more (or less) at short notice at a price to tweak the power on the grid and balance the system. This is known as the Balancing Mechanism. When delivery time comes, the System Operator will ask selected generators to modify their output to match supply and demand based on price, but also generator characteristics (how quickly can they fire up) and sometimes location.
The point of all this waffle is that what makes a good source of power isn't just the amount of power that can be generated. This market mechanism was implemented around 2000, when renewables were an insignificant part of the energy mix. Although there have been revisions to the various pricing and engagement mechanism, the market is still biased (IMO) towards traditional energy generation sources that can provide predictable output at any given time. For example, the economics of nuclear power look very shaky in terms of price per unit, but the market 'likes' a source that chugs away at 800MW day and night as it provides a baseload that can be bought and sold years in advance. Wind and solar are both capable of generating power at lower cost and fewer subsidies, but the market as it's currently constructed probably hasn't worked out how to fully handle the unpredictability (or cost-in environment impact in any real sense, but that's another debate).
Ignoring environmental concerns, the gold standard is still gas, as it can generate large amounts of power predictably AND ramp up and down generation at short notice, something nuclear can't do and you can only do with coal with difficulty (I think Drax has a mechanism, but that's second hand 'knowledge').
So, when it comes to where your electricity is coming from, there's a crude hierarchy of engagement as demand ramps up...
Nuclear and coal (always-on, fixed generation 'baseload', price is hedged long-term)
Renewables (difficult to predict availability, complex pricing but potentially low)
Gas (available, predictable and responsive, more volatile market pricing)
Interconnectors (buying excess power from our European chums)
Short Term Stores (can only deal with demand peaks, usually expensive)
As of Q1 2018, Gas was the UK's largest source of energy (36TWh), followed by renewables (19TWh) and Nuclear (15TWh).
I'd maybe agree with the first two sentences but the last bit is contentious at best. Taking all my waffle above, electric cars ARE a store of power and so can take advantage of periods of low demand to harvest excess renewable generation if it's available. I believe Norway has a scheme that allows electric car owners to sell their car change back into the grid at peak periods if they don't need to use the vehicle.
MontyVeda
a short-tempered ill-controlled small-minded troll
- Location
- Lancaster... the little city.
What about an electric motorbike? I don't mean the current electric assist bikes, but a proper big bike, but electric. Is there such a thing yet?
OP
OP
Denis99
Über Member
- Location
- South Wales
Yes, there are a few motorbikes and an electric scooter (BMW).
swee'pea99
Legendary Member
D
