E-scooters to be allowed on public roads

[Alex321]

I'm confused that the 250 watt limit of an ebike is often described as 'absolute' but sometimes only as a maximum continuous power.


We're talking physics, so an unambiguous definition should be possible, but is the law clear?

In practice, it's the seller that makes that determination and provides the appropriate markings/documentation. So as a consumer the situation shouldn't be vague at all.

It isn't as clear as it could be. It is according to the regulation, 250W "Maximum continuous rated power", not an absolute maximum of 250W.

And how that is defined is as set out in any of various other regulations or standards.

The main standard is EU regulation 168/2013, which in turn defines it as:
‘maximum continuous rated power’ means the maximum thirty minutes power at the output shaft of an electric engine as set out in UNECE regulation No 85.

And that can be found here https://unece.org/fileadmin/DAM/trans/main/wp29/wp29regs/2013/R085r1e.pdf

 

[Alex321]

The law says 250W.

Physics defines what 250W is, and that is unambiguous.

The law does not need to clarify physics.

False.

The law does not say simply "250W".

It says "maximum continuous rated power of 250W". And that DOES need to be clarified, as to how it is measured.

 

[Drago]

Ah, pedantry. Thatll savemyour bacon in court. Not.

How do you measure 250W?

It is clearly defined in physics.

Something is either doing a continuous 250W of work, or it is not. Being mechanical 'effort' or an electrical value it is simple to measure accordingly. Why does it need clarification? What part of physics are you struggling with?

Hell,you don't even need to measure it. If you know the numbers you can make and very accurate calculation.

The only caveat that whoever is doing the work ought to be a certified vehicle examiner.

Those of us with degrees In physics or related fields when it comes to measuring power, work, effort, or plain old ignorance.

 

[Dogtrousers]

You can come up with different, perfectly valid, wattages for a given motor depending on the load, the controller, the cooling, how you measure it. If you have an unambiguous definition of that context then you could come up with a standard rated continuous power (or words to that effect) for a given motor + controller. That's a much more specific thing than just the "power" of a motor.

It's the same with people. We use the FTP test as standard rating conditions. But a person with a cycling FTP of 250W isn't a "250W person". It refers to a specific measurement protocol.

Edit. Oops, I missed @Alex321 's post above which refers to the protocol in question for motors. https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/e...d-on-public-roads.258457/page-41#post-7279030

 

[PK99]

The physics is clear, the law is not:

• Peak power is the amount of power that a battery can push out over a very short period of time to support the surge energy required to start a device.
• Continuous power is the amount of power that a battery can supply to continuously power a device after it's already started.

 

[captain nemo1701]

My thoughts exactly. Nothing vague there. Also why do e-scooters and e-bikes get lumped together? Compliant e-bikes are effectively bicycles, e-scooters are a category of powered vehicle. I certainly hope the inability to leave comments is just a temporary glitch.

I feel the pro escooter lot just try and say 'you let other e-transport on cyclepaths' to justify scooter use, especially in the campaign to have (IMHO) transport for lazy people legalised. They argue the similarities and claim escooters are safe.

What I witness daily says otherwise to me. This morning on the B2B path, bloke shot past on private escooter, even overtaking guys on fast carbon road bikes weaving in and out of all (yes, nearside overtaking too). And then there's the bloke dressed in so much PPE it just says 'I like to race escooters'...and his is one that could easily reach 40mph.

I maintain that cyclepaths are for those who want to cycle and appreciate the health benefits. They aren't for those who are averse to effort but crave convenience. Escooters, along with eskateboards, ewheels etc are just the motorisation of cyclepaths by people who avoid cycling or walking.

 

[captain nemo1701]

Just left this comment for them:

"I don't understand how you think the law on e-scooters and e-bikes is "notably vague". Legally, all privately owned e-scooters are illegal on any part of the highway (that includes the pavement) and in public places. You'd have to be pretty stupid or deliberately obtuse not to understand that.

With regards to e-bikes the law is equally clear; those that conform to EAPC regulations are legal for use on cycle paths and anywhere else that a pedal cycle is permitted. Any electrically power bicycle that doesn't meet EAPC is automatically classed as an electric motorcycle or moped which means it must be taxed and insured and the rider must have a driving license and wear a crash helmet. Nothing remotely vague about any of that, unless you want it to be vague and are trying to muddy the waters so that you can sell more illegal scooters and bikes. Not that I'm suggesting you are, of course."

HA! Just had this pop up on my screen:
View attachment 747490

I wouldn't bother leaving comments, your email will end up on someone's mailing list.

 

[ebikeerwidnes]

In most cases the regulations can be applied easily because the illegal bikes are mostly the ones with a hub motor the size of a dinner plate

There is no way any measurement of this is going to show 250W however you measure it
it will also have a throttle in 99% of cases and the chances of the rider having the required DVLA certification is minimal to say the least
They will also happily keep up the power delivery past 15.5 mph


so they fail on all counts when they only need to fail on one to fail overall

a possibly legal bike - whether bought as such from new or a "normal" bike fitted with a supposedly kit - will have a much smaller motor and will pass at least some of the above tests and the others will be damn close
i.e. if it doesn;t have the motor cutoff then that is a clear fail
also the throttle without supporting DVLA stuff

concentrating on the power of the motor is not necessary, at this point, to get the majority of dangerous bikes off the road

something that actually provides 300W instead of 250W if not in the same league as something that produces 1000W

and the other parameters are easier to measure - especially the motor cutoff which only needs a simple rolling road thing I would imagine




doing all that at the roadside may be a challenge - but it would provide sufficient suspicion to confiscate the device and do the tests in a workshop/lab


you would probably on need to start enforcing the regulations for the problem to reduce dramatically in that area


probably

 

[classic33]

I'm all in favour of going back to the old, pre 2015, regulations. No-one seemed to have any problems understanding what "continuous maximum output of 200 Watts meant.

For those struggling with how this power is measured, how is the power output of any vehicle measured? If it were a IC powered motorbike, would you still have the same issue deciding how the the engine size was measured, and the speed limiter were supposed to operate?

But because it's on something "new" folk are trying their best to find a way round the regulations to allow them to continue to use what they bought. You wish to prove that it fits within the regulations, get it put through the MVSA.
If it passes it doesn't meet the current regulations, and you'll have a sheet telling you why as proof.
If it fails, you'll have a sheet telling you why it failed.
Either sheet, handed to you on collection, can be used to clarify the legal status of the vehicle.

Ignorance of the law is no defence.

 

[lazybloke]

It isn't as clear as it could be. It is according to the regulation, 250W "Maximum continuous rated power", not an absolute maximum of 250W.

And how that is defined is as set out in any of various other regulations or standards.

The main standard is EU regulation 168/2013, which in turn defines it as:
‘maximum continuous rated power’ means the maximum thirty minutes power at the output shaft of an electric engine as set out in UNECE regulation No 85.

And that can be found here https://unece.org/fileadmin/DAM/trans/main/wp29/wp29regs/2013/R085r1e.pdf

That's fine, I can integrate the power output and divide by time to get average power, and my controller can enforce a limite on that of 250 watts over a half hour period of time.
But what does it say about transient power output limits?

Unless there's a limit on instantaneous power , there's nothing to stop me putting a 2kw motor on my bike for monster acceleration. I can still go through approvals, as long as the motor controller enforces the AVERAGE power over the half hour, the ultimate speed limit for assistance, and the need to pedal.



Hands up - I didn't bother to read much of the pdf. Sorry.

 

[Dadam]

For those struggling with how this power is measured, how is the power output of any vehicle measured? If it were a IC powered motorbike, would you still have the same issue deciding how the the engine size was measured, and the speed limiter were supposed to operate?

Power output for IC engines is measured on a dyno (actually they measure torque and plot it against rpm to calculate power)
You could measure an electric motor similarly but for these purposes they measure input (volts x amps) not output. Input will be a little higher than output as no motor is 100% efficient.

 

[classic33]

Power output for IC engines is measured on a dyno (actually they measure torque and plot it against rpm to calculate power)
You could measure an electric motor similarly but for these purposes they measure input (volts x amps) not output. Input will be a little higher than output as no motor is 100% efficient.

Unable to speak on what the police in this country did, but the Guards used a roadside dyno, in parts of Dublin and Limerick, when the laws changed in Ireland earlier this year.
Challenge that result and it had to be done at a testing station.

And to take the power output further, would you disagree that there are different bands into which IC powered mopeds/motorbikes fit. Bands that we don't argue over how they are measured. Why should electric vehicles be different?

 

[classic33]

It isn't as clear as it could be. It is according to the regulation, 250W "Maximum continuous rated power", not an absolute maximum of 250W.

And how that is defined is as set out in any of various other regulations or standards.

The main standard is EU regulation 168/2013, which in turn defines it as:
‘maximum continuous rated power’ means the maximum thirty minutes power at the output shaft of an electric engine as set out in UNECE regulation No 85.

And that can be found here https://unece.org/fileadmin/DAM/trans/main/wp29/wp29regs/2013/R085r1e.pdf

From 2013, pre-dating the current EPAC regulations brought in in 2015.

 

[Drago]

I wouldn't bother leaving comments, your email will end up on someone's mailing list.

That's ok. I gave them Accy's email address.

 

[Alex321]

And to take the power output further, would you disagree that there are different bands into which IC powered mopeds/motorbikes fit. Bands that we don't argue over how they are measured. Why should electric vehicles be different?

Because that is what the law says.

It isn't anybody here arguing about the physics, or how it should be measured. It is about how the law defines it. Which, as often with laws, is not necessarily the same as the average man in the street (or physicist!) would define it.