Domestique
Über Member
A poor choice of words I accept, but I can assure you certainly not meant in an offensive way.2796824 said:
Thats what I love about these places, everything is took apart word by word.
dumbass LCC bike lane on Stratford High Street
- Thread starter dellzeqq
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Thats what I love about these places, everything is took apart word by word.
Flying Dodo
It'll soon be summer
You've always been patronising and stubborn on this forum but this is greatYou have already decided that "this" is a bad thing, and seem willing to freely admit that any evidence that indicates otherwise will not be sufficient. Excellent science-based approach I must say. Anyhoo lots of fancy words but in the end you've said absolutely nothing.
Yes I do indeed (to answer a later post) think that I'm right that Dutch-style infrastructure is the answer. But I'm sure you guys also expect that YOU'RE right that it's not, so I can't imagine that that's a problem in itself. That's why I'm curious as to what would have to happen for people to think that Dutch-style segregation on main roads (not necessarily CS2X, which isn't amazingly well done) actually works and improves the experience for most people?
The answer is for all road users to respect each other. The Dutch style solution does have segregation in some places, but not in others. The important part, which is what's missing here, is that generally motorised users in the Netherlands don't harass cyclists or pedestrians. Have a look at this film of Amsterdam - do you think CS2 comes even close in concept? Look at the streams of cyclists flowing along the streets. As Dellzeqq pointed out, how would what's been done creating the cycle lane at Stratford cope with even a fraction of the volume of traffic in Amsterdam?
Stratford and all the gallons of blue paint used elsewhere are a mere sop to cyclists - they are not the long term answer. Sadly, politicians like Boris just aren't prepared to look long term and stop pandering to the motorist.
Domestique
Über Member
2797318 said:
Accepted and returned. Its a difficult time when these things are happening.
Wobblers
Euthermic
- Location
- Minkowski Space
I wish I could "like" this a dozen times. FD has hit the nail on the head. It's not something that a mere bike lane will solve, or a dash of paint. It's attitude - from the politicians who just use the latest tragedies as a convenient political football for some truly repulsive victim blaming (no prizes for guessing who I'm thinking of here) to traffic engineers who regard the goal of prioritising the needs of motorists - or rather the fast speeds of motorists as the be all and end all, with cyclists and pedestrians mere inconveniences to be entirely discounted.
It most certainly is not something that segregation can address - rather segregation serves to reinforce the attitude that cyclists and pedestrians are something to be excluded from the roads.
I'd agree with both McW and FD on this, but I'd go further. I'd say that cyclists in London have seen a huge shift in driver behaviour on those roads where cyclists are the most numerous. It isn't just safety in numbers - it's respect for numbers. Whether this says something basic about humanity I've no idea, and I'm not sufficiently concerned about the process to look a gift horse in the mouth. This segregated path will do nothing in terms of building respect.
And, if you doubt this, take a ride on the roads of Milton Keynes.
And, if you doubt this, take a ride on the roads of Milton Keynes.
2798611 said:
But it could save lives. Please consider that.
Astonishing to read some of the comments here. Please study the similar infrastructure in place in Denmark, Holland, Germany etc, consider the KSIs in those countries and then comment.
Next.
How, exactly?
martint235
Dog on a bike
- Location
- Welling
Why do people keep wittering on about the infrastructure in the Netherlands, Germany et al. The big difference over there isn't the infrastructure, it's the fact that cyclists are respected and treated like normal road users rather than just a hindrance that can be bullied out of the way like in the UK
Wobblers
Euthermic
- Location
- Minkowski Space
There's surprisingly little evidence to support that, unfortunately.
On the other hand, there are innumerable examples of appallingly designed and constructed infrastructure in this country which increases the risks experienced by cyclists, through such things as poor road surfaces, removing cyclists' from motorists' sight lines, adding extra and unnecessary points of conflicts at junctions, dangerous obstacles....
Cycling infrastructure is to a very large extent merely a placebo - it doesn't actually do what it claims to. Unfortunately, it doesn't come with a beneficial placebo effect...
srw
It's a bit more complicated than that...
"Could", is, I think, the appropriate word.
And if you do a little bit of reading around the forum you'll discover that many of us have done exactly what you suggest - looked at the KSI rates in other parts of Europe - and discovered that some of the claims made for them are a little overcooked.
knocksofbeggarmen
Active Member
Can anyone enlighten me as to why the pictured route around the inside of the bus-stop is a worse solution to that on Royal College Street, where the cycle-lane runs between the bus and the waiting passengers? Isn't that likely to lead to much more serious pedestrian/bike conflict? If you reject both ways of handling segregated bike-path / bus stop interactions, it looks a bit like you are rejecting segregation anywhere near a bus, ie, pretty much everywhere in London. Is that your view? But don't lots of continental cities manage infrastructure just like that pictured without any kind of problem?
knocksofbeggarmen
Active Member
This link below describes in some detail the solution adopted in the netherlands (but not denmark). If you know of stats showing that these designs result in higher casualties/ conflicts than our current approach to road layout and cycling provision, I would be most interested to hear. Ditto, stats suggesting that the pedestrians are worse off as a result. http://bicycledutch.wordpress.com/2013/09/05/riding-around-the-bus-stop/
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knocksofbeggarmen
Active Member
David Hembrow has updated is account of bus/cycle interaction to point out problems with the flawed implementation of the 'dutch' Bus-bypass in London. http://www.aviewfromthecyclepath.com/2013/08/ten-bus-stop-bypasses-for-bicycles.html
From that account I *stand corrected* about the facility at the top of this thread. It would appear not to be done to current Dutch standards. But in that case the conclusions that have been drawn from the failure of this facility *about the LCC idea of going dutch* are substantially misplaced.
It might even be said: introducing substandard mockeries of continental provision has been, for years, the planners most effective way of obstructing any prospect of our getting mass-cycling - or even wanting it. It's like serving up spagetti in tepid gravy and then saying, look - see, can't abide foreign muck.
From that account I *stand corrected* about the facility at the top of this thread. It would appear not to be done to current Dutch standards. But in that case the conclusions that have been drawn from the failure of this facility *about the LCC idea of going dutch* are substantially misplaced.
It might even be said: introducing substandard mockeries of continental provision has been, for years, the planners most effective way of obstructing any prospect of our getting mass-cycling - or even wanting it. It's like serving up spagetti in tepid gravy and then saying, look - see, can't abide foreign muck.
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the rubble doesn't so much bounce as stir listlessly.......
knocksofbeggarmen
Active Member
On the whole I'm in favour of evidence and knowledge rather than blundering about (listlessly or otherwise). On the other hand a) science without experiment isn't science (what would the Netherlands be like if they had waited for stats *first* rather than doing the obvious?) & b) lucky johnny-come-latelys like us have in the Netherlands a considerable body of evidence on the question whether "it is possible to carve up the existing space to fit everyone in" - so why are people on this thread firing off speculative answers to the question along the lines of "no, of course not!" without looking to that experience?2868955 said:
I am *not* defending that CS2 facility, which from the angular kerbs on seems to have been designed for the minimum bike capacity within space allocated. But I am asking questions about the extent to which this normal-service british cock-up damns the dutch approach.
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