dumbass LCC bike lane on Stratford High Street

[steveindenmark]

Dell,

They dont seem to be able to get the basics right. When any new building projects are started in Denmark, the cycle paths are put in first. We didnt always have cycle paths in Denmark and neither did the Dutch but you have to start putting them in otherwise you are always trying to squeeze them in later.

As for living in Beirut as opposed to Copenhagen.... Off you go mate. Rather you than me.

Steve

 

[srw]

Dell,

They dont seem to be able to get the basics right. When any new building projects are started in Denmark, the cycle paths are put in first. We didnt always have cycle paths in Denmark and neither did the Dutch but you have to start putting them in otherwise you are always trying to squeeze them in later.

Do you want to invent the time machine or should I?

The City of London's street layout is mediaeval. Literally. Westminster's street layout is Georgian. The street layout in central London outside the CIty and Westminster is Victorian. London's current extent - 60 miles from side to side in each direction - was fully built up by about 1960.

There are no new building projects involving new roads. There is no room for them.

 

[subaqua]

Do you want to invent the time machine or should I?

The City of London's street layout is mediaeval. Literally. Westminster's street layout is Georgian. The street layout in central London outside the CIty and Westminster is Victorian. London's current extent - 60 miles from side to side in each direction - was fully built up by about 1960.

There are no new building projects involving new roads. There is no room for them.

they did manage to build a few in the late 90s and early 00s though. A12/M11 link road and Orient way . 1 of which has a cycling prohibition and the other i wouldn't really want to cycle along on the road.

 

[steveindenmark]

I appreciate what the Streets of London are like, I used to live there. I was talking about future planning, not just in London but all over the UK.

As for the present situation in London. It is a big problem, but do they have any cyclists in their group who are trying to solve it?

Steve

 

[steveindenmark]

Not much of a choice then Adrian.

 

[srw]

I appreciate what the Streets of London are like, I used to live there. I was talking about future planning, not just in London but all over the UK.

As for the present situation in London. It is a big problem, but do they have any cyclists in their group who are trying to solve it?

Steve

There aren't all that many roads being built anywhere - and where there are cycle safety is often considered. A lot of the roads that +are+ being built are relief roads making town centres safer and removing the need for segregation. There's also the beginnings of a move to fully segregated long-distance paths where the property rights exist. But British property law being what it is and the cost of British land being what it is there's a limit on what's feasible.

As for cycle safety on-road - there's been more movement in the last 10 years than in the prceding 50. Larrgely because so many people ride - there's safety in numbers, which is the real lesson of Copenhagen.

 

[Wobblers]

Not much of a choice then Adrian.

You have to consider two very real practical issues.

The first is the traffic engineers and planners. These are the people responsible for the ludicrous monstrosities in "Farcility of the Month". You know, the cycle lanes that are narrower than your handlebars, the cycle paths that disappear at those busy junctions where you most need them, those routes that take you many miles out of your way and then vanish. There is an insidious assumption that throwing money at cycle facilities will somehow improve their design. But with the same set of bozos in charge, all that will happen is that you'll get more of the same: more inadequate, useless, or downright dangerous "facilities". To really change things, you've got to change the mindset that the Car Comes First At All Costs. That is not something I see happening.

The other issue, as Dellzeqq has said, is money - where's it coming from? To put it bluntly, spending the money remodelling the dangerous junctions and fixing the potholes would be far better - not merely is that of benefit to all road users, it also materially increases safety from the cyclist's point of view.

 

[GrumpyGregry]

The flawed "separate infrastructure for bicycles" argument has such similarities to the "exclusive infrastructure for motor vehicles (that pay road tax)" arguments that I wonder if they spring from the same motor-centric point of view. Are those on bikes who advance "separateness is all" so stridently, in the face of the obvious implementation obstacles it has to overcome, simply private car drivers on bikes, dricyclists if you like, who have not yet shed their pro-motor subliminal preferences or overcome their conditioning? Meaning they still retain what is, essentially, the 'hard-pressed' drivers "I must have exclusive use of this shared space" perspective when on two wheels that they had/have when on four?

Possibly this is all a side-effect of our society’s petrol addiction or the lead they used to put in petrol so we mustn't rush to judge the poor, afflicted, misguided souls.

 

[steveindenmark]

Mcwobble, changing the mindset that the car comes first was the big battle that the Dutch and Danes had back in the 60s and 70s. In Denmark the cyclist has as much right to be there as the motorised transport. But that is helped by the fact that most Danes also ride a bike. In reality, cyclists are top of the chain when it comes transport on the roads in Denmark ( no pun intended).

I found this clip on Youtube about Dutch cycle paths. It may seem a bit quaint but they had to start somewhere and it worked for them. Just as aside note, look how many wear helmets and see how many different styles of bikes there are.


View: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XuBdf9jYj7o


Steve

 

[GrumpyGregry]

How big is Copenhagen? 88.25 km²
How big is Amsterdam? 219 km²
How big is London? 1,572 km²

Population of Copenhagen? 559,440 (2013)
Population of Amsterdam? 779,808 (2011)
Population of London? 8.174 million (2011)

(Source: Typing "how big is nnnn?" and "Population of nnnn?" into Google)

Instead of just trotting out clichéd responses about the wonders of the Netherlands and Denmark can we have a UK solution for UK requirements please. A 21st C response to a 21st C challenge? It may be me but it looks like the challenge for London in 2013 may be an order of magnitude, or two, larger than faced by our continental cousins in the last quarter of the 20th C.

 

[dellzeqq]

Not much of a choice then Adrian.

enough of a choice. More bikes than cars on major radial routes tells the story.

The thing is, Steve, without wanting to come across as completely patronising, it falls to me to tell you that you're coming across as completely patronising.

 

[steveindenmark]

Dell,

It was not intentional and I am pretty sure Adrian did not see it that way.

Steve

 

[steveindenmark]

I thought you may do

 

[GrumpyGregry]

We would need a Baron Haussmann and laws to back him or her up. I am not sure which political party to lobby for this one.

serious question. did Hausmann do anything on Ile de la cité, and the other parts of the old medieval city of Paris within the old walls broadly equivalent to the City of London?

EDIT: answered here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haussmann's_renovation_of_Paris#Modernisation_of_a_medieval_city


fascinating what you can do under a dictatorship.

 

[StuartG]

How big is Copenhagen? 88.25 km²
How big is Amsterdam? 219 km²
How big is London? 1,572 km²

Population of Copenhagen? 559,440 (2013)
Population of Amsterdam? 779,808 (2011)
Population of London? 8.174 million (2011)

You make the point that London lies between Amsterdam and Copenhagen in population density (with Copenhagen being the densest). Hence what point are you trying to make in London being different when it comes to squeezing a quart into a pint pot?

Or are you making some other argument?