Coronavirus outbreak

Page may contain affiliate links. Please see terms for details.

marinyork

Resting in suspended Animation
Location
Logopolis
Me too Rusty. I see myself as a glass 1/2 full person but only for lifes trivial business, the important things make me glass 1/2 empty and awaiting a refill.

I did say in the adjoining sentence :smile:. If people want to be properly cautious they could just point out that in Italy (and possible Spain?) it's believed the numbers of deaths are under-reported as people are dying in their houses. Because it isn't clear when instructions were followed in Italy, it's also very uncertain when the death toll will level off, never mind decline. It was only the other day that we discovered in Italy contrary to Italian lockdown commentary 24/7 on the media a large number of 'non-essential' offices and other things have been running just as normal a week and a half after national lockdown!
 

Dave7

Legendary Member
Location
Cheshire
Must be one you can drive to?
Seriously.....no. You got me thinking so I bounced that off MrsD. We can't think of one that is not part of a chain eg Spar or McColls. Cannot think of a single independant one. I do drive a few miles to the butcher and to the farm shop but apart from that.....nowt.
Near the butchers there are several Polish shops that I triedbut I have no idea what most of the stuff is.
 

vickster

Legendary Member
maybe vickster had been isolating since the birth of punk.
folk will continue to favour supermarkets and aldi and lidl for the reasons they long have.
Especially so in these severely straightened times.
I see the rise of Aldi and Lidl continuing apace after this - folk realising that they don't need 102 varieties of whatever, stuff supposedly created/inspired by/a homage to renaissance barons/peasants -but can instead just use basic simple ingredients a la Catford.
eh?

I've never favoured Lidl or Aldi for anything. When I've bought their fresh or own brand stuff it's been no cheaper than Asda and to me less palatable (and I hate queuing to pay in supermarkets so choose ones with self check outs)
 

vickster

Legendary Member
Seriously.....no. You got me thinking so I bounced that off MrsD. We can't think of one that is not part of a chain eg Spar or McColls. Cannot think of a single independant one. I do drive a few miles to the butcher and to the farm shop but apart from that.....nowt.
Near the butchers there are several Polish shops that I triedbut I have no idea what most of the stuff is.
Try Spar or MCColls then, if you can't get what you want from a supermarket - those are often run by individual retailers, they aren't a chain like the supermarkets
 

Dave7

Legendary Member
Location
Cheshire
thanks for the update - fits with the trend I have been watching - my shopping can easily await until the back end of next week.

I did yesterday stroll, distancing, round my local sainsburys.
Tiny scraps of more exotic pasta left, no rice apart from those barmy individual portion microwave packs - but at least signs of improvement.
Beer and wine aisles largely stripped - following pub closures I suppose.
No shortage of some artisinal raspberry vodka - folk retaining some sort of sense.
On the retired section I suggest a bartering system eg I will swap one bog roll (unused) for a bottle of Cognac. For some reason I got not takers:sad:
 

roubaixtuesday

self serving virtue signaller
Buy what you need and get out, wear gloves, don't touch anything (the lady in my local one was also wearing gloves on Friday night). All the advice was to avoid being close to others for 15 minutes hence don't gather for a picnic - I have not seen a change to that advice. This is the issue, the guidance is very muddled. Clearly if the shop is now a social meeting place, then avoid. I was in and out in 5 minutes

I think the advice on gloves is that they are near pointless - a better vector for transmission than your bare hands and less able to be washed.

I believe it's rather recommended to ensure you wash your hands often, and immediately after returning home. Eg from the Independent and well sourced:

Should I wear gloves to protect myself?
The NHS says that items like face masks and gloves play a “very important role” in a clinical setting but there is “little widespread evidence” that they are useful for members of the public.

Public Health England (PHE) and the World Health Organisation has also not recommended people wear gloves or face masks to protect themselves.

A spokesperson for PHE tells The Independent: “PHE is not recommending the use of gloves as a protective measure against COVID-19 for the general public.

“People concerned about the transmission of infectious diseases should prioritise good personal, respiratory and hand hygiene.”

A virologist at Imperial College London also told The Independent that they worry items like gloves give a “false sense of security” and washing hands is a far better precautionary measure.
 

tom73

Guru
Location
Yorkshire
This is quite a late one but there's a reason for the late reply.

Sky news has been using this chart from time to time the last 24 hours. Myself personally I'm not particularly a visual communicator I know that Italy has implemented three lock downs and another three substantial restrictions and when they happened. If it helps others then why not.

On a technical point there are a couple of reasons why the government may not particularly like using it. The DCMO got drawn a little bit too much, in an answer to a question, to talking about the case rates, the death rates in Italy and here someone partially quoted what they said. I'm not quite sure why the PHE/government view focuses on this a bit too much. It may be that the government side is worried about criticism (although there's a flippant answer to that and that if they are worried about how the death rates appears to the media, if we get our testing regime frigging sorted it'll look better). Another technical point the DCMO alluded to that hasn't been picked up, it is generally reckoned that in bits of Italy particularly 5 or 6 provinces people are dying at home and so not part of the hospital numbers and not part of the death count (in the UK this isn't happening). Sadly, this is very plausible. One of the interesting bits in different bits of Italy is people have said they hear 'fewer ambulances in these days'. That could mean the virus is under control, or it could just mean that they aren't taking people to hospital.

In terms of communicating to the public, I feel that Boris does a particularly poor job on this one. The best team to communicate it at press conferences is probably DCMO Jenny Harries. You could also draft in Queenie at some point.

In terms of what's in the content as on this forum a lot of people in government are in highly professional jobs, are in the position of being privileged, very powerful, having their opinions listened to and so go off on one and think the public are morons. This tends to lead to being quite vague as is seen in some press conferences - not knocking having an epidemic curve in an early press conference it was good, but it was the verbal said that was good and not the graphics! The public understand what an exponential curve is, contrary to what particularly 5 or 6 people on this forum think. The alternative theory is that people think keep it simple (which has also been discussed on this thread). Content needs to focus on the specifics of social distancing. As said just yelling social distancing to everything doesn't work. It's one that many countries have grappled with as they've imposed numeric bans on groups of 50 or in Germany yesterday more than 2. A 5 minute video that is repeated throughout the day with medics, queenie, DCMO, videos and graphics and clearer advice is what's needed. Press conferences although useful just appeal to the vanity of politicians and journalists.

Lastly the person who goes most 'off message' from a politician's point of view, but not a scientific or reasonable one is DCMO Jenny Harries. The mental health side is clearly important to the medics and scientists. This isn't coming across to a society or media that's only really starting to talk about it. It's because it's something at societal level we're very bad at.

The other big difficulty is the world of science, scientific thinking and words. Are now meeting the world of politics and once you get the two being used as one by politicians as it's just ever day language. Who just don't understand most if not all of it and treat it as sound bites. It's never going to be a happy ending. Then you have the press hanging on every little bit of stats or science that they can so easy take totally out of context. A public that believe what they want or it was on FB so it's fact. Politicians have for so long been use to going things that most people will like. Over night party politics no longer matters. So now the problem is the rules of the game have changed.
Who ever was in charge from what ever party would face the same challenge.

Some of the info coming out is not clear enough some is a bit messed up. This has to change and will I think will come quite quickly.
Much minus the politics and just plan government department stuff is much better.
Once it was easy they controlled the information as with the foot and mouth but now no-one controls it.
 

Unkraut

Master of the Inane Comment
Location
Germany
We are behind: in Germany shops workers have a shield in front of the tills, most are card only, there are distance markings on the floors.

Hairdressers are still open.
The Aldi I visited on Saturday has all the markings on the floor and has set out the shop differently as much as possible so people can keep the minimum 1.5 metres apart. Everyone seems to be following this rule as well. The shielding round the till was very makeshift! REWE, which is a bit posher, has posh shielding.

Got my haircut in last week - just in time they are all now closed here. By definition the contact is too close.

Despite all this, and I would say Germany is a good 2 weeks ahead of the UK in clamping down, there is a very real fear that the measures are too late to prevent a spread that will overburden the hospital system. It will take a couple of weeks to find out. It's not as though there aren't shortages of staff and equipment here as well. At least whilst there is still some spare capacity a few patients are being taken from France to help out.
 

roubaixtuesday

self serving virtue signaller
OK, things are now getting weird:

I'm delighted that Nadine Dorries is returning to work at Parliament.

There, I've said it.

From Graun:

Health minister Nadine Dorries is returning to work in Westminster after recovering from Covid-19.

She said on Twitter:

Good to be back in the saddle and able to play my part to help our PM, cabinet and the scientists who are working around the clock to keep us safe and #SaveLives.
 

mjr

Comfy armchair to one person & a plank to the next
I've never favoured Lidl or Aldi for anything. When I've bought their fresh or own brand stuff it's been no cheaper than Asda and to me less palatable (and I hate queuing to pay in supermarkets so choose ones with self check outs)
I've broken my previous boycott and started preferring the supermarkets with handscanners again, keeping my gloves on too. At least if you get selected for full rescan, it's at a till that only does that IME, so no-one queueing behind you.
 

mjr

Comfy armchair to one person & a plank to the next
I think the advice on gloves is that they are near pointless - a better vector for transmission than your bare hands and less able to be washed.

I believe it's rather recommended to ensure you wash your hands often, and immediately after returning home. Eg from the Independent and well sourced:

Your quotes do not support the "near pointless" claim. However, I feel it is wise to treat glove outers as probably-contaminated (like all the outside world) and wash them often.
 
Up the thread I rambled about her indoors flight to England being cancelled last week and how she re-booked for the Sunday flight, yesterdays flight. This was shortly before I heard the news that travel restrictions would be in place here within 24 hours.
The flight on Sunday actually went ahead, without her. I explained that nowhere on the self cert "attestation" we have to make before traveling ANYWHERE did it mention a trip to an airport to drop someone off who wants to attend to domestic matters elsewhere.
This caused some friction between us but as the week of news from all over Europe went by it finally sank in that there is no business in Britain so pressing or urgent for her that she needed to be there.
She is an intelligent person but it seems that many are in a state of denial regarding the seriousness of this outbreak, even when faced with TV images of temporary hospitals and news with increased death counts every day.
The choice of staying put in remote countryside or a metropolitan area of 2.8 million people was very easy for me to make, for her it took some persuading.
 

marinyork

Resting in suspended Animation
Location
Logopolis
The other big difficulty is the world of science, scientific thinking and words. Are now meeting the world of politics and once you get the two being used as one by politicians as it's just ever day language. Who just don't understand most if not all of it and treat it as sound bites. It's never going to be a happy ending. Then you have the press hanging on every little bit of stats or science that they can so easy take totally out of context. A public that believe what they want or it was on FB so it's fact. Politicians have for so long been use to going things that most people will like. Over night party politics no longer matters. So now the problem is the rules of the game have changed.
Who ever was in charge from what ever party would face the same challenge.

Some of the info coming out is not clear enough some is a bit messed up. This has to change and will I think will come quite quickly.
Much minus the politics and just plan government department stuff is much better.
Once it was easy they controlled the information as with the foot and mouth but now no-one controls it.

I think gov.uk is very used to 1950s-1970s style wording. Some of the stuff to the public is very basic - this was one of the mistakes on the social distancing page. There are people that suit that depth of advice, but generally society's moved on and I see this in a wide variety of settings such as employment law where someone says 'what does x mean?' on gov.uk. It's because they've sussed out a subtlety that's not covered.

Non-essential travel, unnecessary travel and mass gatherings were three phrases that I think are particularly problematic that seem to being addressed by the politicians or public communicators.

Press conferences - police ones are particularly bad at this - tend to use the same language, it becomes obvious to the in group what it means, but sounds bizarre to the rest.

One of the things that I find interesting are there were the last two weeks people receptive who hadn't yet done anything and it's a case of getting them to think about things and how you do that. An acquaintance runs a business (one of the ones talked about up thread) that is in theory to me quite high risk as there's a level of intimacy and being breathed/cough/talked on. They don't work every day, they had a chat to different people, were getting cancellations, one of the things I and other people said personally was I wouldn't do x at all personally, but if you do then I'd look into an FFP2/3 mask, which isn't recommended by the government btw. They thought well maybe I'll do it with a mask, but reduced procedures. Couldn't get hold of one. Then pulled things, so that person's had no significant social contacts for a week. That's probably a good thing because non-medical opinion they have contact with two people in very high risk groups and I reckon they're probably more high risk than they reckon :sad:.
 

tom73

Guru
Location
Yorkshire
I think the advice on gloves is that they are near pointless - a better vector for transmission than your bare hands and less able to be washed.

I believe it's rather recommended to ensure you wash your hands often, and immediately after returning home. Eg from the Independent and well sourced:

For most people they don't wear gloves for PPE for infection control. Mass inexperienced wearing is a bad idea it stop's you remembering to wash your hands. Also at what point are people removing them and in what way? When worn correctly they are designed to be removed after ever procedure. Not as everyday wear. In fact your making it worse not better and the risk is higher.

You go out to the shop , come home wash your hands, wash your hands every time you want to touch your face, prep and eat food, blow your nose, every time you've been to the loo. Really the simple advice if your not truly use to this and don't practice it as part of your job.
If in doubt wash your hands , hot water and good old soap. For 20 sec and mack sure you get ever bit clean don't forget the back of your hands.

What ever new government stuff comes out the basic hand washing message will always stay. It simple , works and lets face it it's not rocket science.
 
Last edited:

Pale Rider

Legendary Member
I appreciate that some are happy on zero hour contracts, that is not a discussion I was attempting to start.
Do you know, either through talking to your friends or by doing your research, after McDs have paid 'til the start of April what someone that is on a zero hours contract gets 80% of?

No, but that may partly be because neither do they - yet.

McDonalds does appear to be acting fairly in this instance so I'd like to think they would come up with a starting figure for each employee, possibly by averaging their wages over the last few months.

It's also not clear to me what the government would accept as a monthly wage for a zero hours employee.

Fairly simple for someone in my position, same wage PAYE, each month for the last year or more.

Presumably, a zero hours person at McDs will have a variable wage.

I think I heard somewhere some zero hours have a minimum number of hours that must be worked - perhaps McDs will use that.
 
Top Bottom