Coronavirus outbreak

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DRM

Guru
Location
West Yorks
Johnno: Who do you think should suffer, please? People who are at more risk of dying? Not disagreeing, just asking. There's a good argument, in the likely circumstances in the spring, where school staff generally might be given a specific place in the priority table, given the prime importance of getting our children back to proper schooling (and the secondary beneficial effects of that).
It's not just school staff, everyone who is having to work, right now, should be getting the jab, in my case I have to travel all over the place, some of the attitude of the management in large distribution warehousing that I sometimes visit is dreadful, the infections are off the scale, yet they refuse to acknowledge what's going on, they don't care as long as orders go out of the door, despite hordes of staff being off with Covid-19, if I get it, then Mrs DRM will get it, it could easily see her off, give the jab to EVERYONE who's vulnerable & in greater risk of catching it.
I took F-i-L for his jab on Saturday, the set up was excellent, from being directed where to park, asked for appointment time, then being summoned through at the allocated time, there was a constant stream of patients through whilst we were waiting, they will have vaccinated a lot of people that day
 

PK99

Legendary Member
Location
SW19
It's not just school staff, everyone who is having to work, right now, should be getting the jab, in my case I have to travel all over the place, some of the attitude of the management in large distribution warehousing that I sometimes visit is dreadful, the infections are off the scale, yet they refuse to acknowledge what's going on, they don't care as long as orders go out of the door, despite hordes of staff being off with Covid-19, if I get it, then Mrs DRM will get it, it could easily see her off, give the jab to EVERYONE who's vulnerable & in greater risk of catching it.
I took F-i-L for his jab on Saturday, the set up was excellent, from being directed where to park, asked for appointment time, then being summoned through at the allocated time, there was a constant stream of patients through whilst we were waiting, they will have vaccinated a lot of people that day

You seem to be operating under a common misapprehension that your having the vaccine would be protective for MrsDRM.

That is not the case.

Members of households containing a shielding person are not on the priority list as vaccination protects from serious disease but there is no evidence that vaccinaction prevents transmission from the vaccinated individual.
 

tom73

Guru
Location
Yorkshire
Mrs 73 last night after yet another 12 hour shift from hell. She had a bit of family news my SIL is getting vaccinated due to being classed as social services. She works via 3rd sector with female asylum seekers.
Now here's the dub she happily been braking the rules they are always round at her parents via cover of childcare bubble.Even when they got put in tier3 months ago. As if nothing was happening she wanted everyone to meet up a week before Christmas. (All 10 of them 4 households) giving Mrs 73 a massive guilt trip in the process. Her parents are over 70 they've not had a call yet, she all for principles and equality ect yet she's now going this. She not at any bigger risk then most and is not in any priority group. In the mean time big sis who she went out and clapped for every week who can't avoid covid has no idea when she's getting hers. To top it off come early March she will be redundant as the funding has ended. Long before the second dose is given.
The carry on's with the in-laws had got a bit strained with me before this but now...
 

Johnno260

Guru
Location
East Sussex
It's not just school staff, everyone who is having to work, right now, should be getting the jab, in my case I have to travel all over the place, some of the attitude of the management in large distribution warehousing that I sometimes visit is dreadful, the infections are off the scale, yet they refuse to acknowledge what's going on, they don't care as long as orders go out of the door, despite hordes of staff being off with Covid-19, if I get it, then Mrs DRM will get it, it could easily see her off, give the jab to EVERYONE who's vulnerable & in greater risk of catching it.
I took F-i-L for his jab on Saturday, the set up was excellent, from being directed where to park, asked for appointment time, then being summoned through at the allocated time, there was a constant stream of patients through whilst we were waiting, they will have vaccinated a lot of people that day

I have witnessed the same thing, during the first lockdown when we were told to work from home, the office manager took the decision to send us home, we got an email from further up the food chain saying be at your desk tomorrow or don't come back, it's a USA firm we work for.

A regional manager had to step in and sort it all out, but in the mean time we were in the office, thing is as soon as the US lockdowns were announced they all went home with no issue, and I got a warning for saying oh I see the America first slogan extends to workers outside the USA health care as well... but I have a big mouth so.

We are also getting bombed daily with get vaccinated get back to work, well I can't until it's legal, fact is my work output is way better from home, but that isn't acceptable still! lol I have been working longer hours as well, from 7am to support an Indian site to 11pm to support the New Jersey site.

It's like you said warehouse staff and delivery drivers also working long hours on low salary, and I bet they're getting the "be here or I will find someone who will be" line as well.
 

vickster

Legendary Member
I have witnessed the same thing, during the first lockdown when we were told to work from home, the office manager took the decision to send us home, we got an email from further up the food chain saying be at your desk tomorrow or don't come back, it's a USA firm we work for.

A regional manager had to step in and sort it all out, but in the mean time we were in the office, thing is as soon as the US lockdowns were announced they all went home with no issue, and I got a warning for saying oh I see the America first slogan extends to workers outside the USA health care as well... but I have a big mouth so.

We are also getting bombed daily with get vaccinated get back to work, well I can't until it's legal, fact is my work output is way better from home, but that isn't acceptable still! lol I have been working longer hours as well, from 7am to support an Indian site to 11pm to support the New Jersey site.

It's like you said warehouse staff and delivery drivers also working long hours on low salary, and I bet they're getting the "be here or I will find someone who will be" line as well.
I'd be preparing my CV...
 

Johnno260

Guru
Location
East Sussex
So it's one year today that the UK had it's first confirmed case from that point on in just less a year we ended up with 100,000 lost lives and countless others left with permeant damage along the way. To think It could have been so different if we'd not followed the money. :sad:

This and the mental health cost, for bereaved, some health workers I'm sure something akin to PTSD will become evident, it's going to be a very sad point in the history books for sure.
 

Ajax Bay

Guru
Location
East Devon
People think everything will be all tickety boo for the spring. Well it’s going to be death & lock downs on & off for most of the year in reality. The vaccines will only ease the situation not completely make it go away. It will take a full year to get most of the population done. 2022 should be more ‘normal’ apart from the economic damage.
Reaching back to your comment last Saturday after enjoying an excellent ride yesterday.
I'm going to address "deaths", "lock downs" "vaccines easing the situation" and "full year". I don't think it will be "tickety boo for the spring". But I think we might reasonably be more optimistic for the rest, without invoking the wrath of the 'keep 'em locked down till whenever' tendency too much.
The current death rates are horrendous. Would that we could use a happier metric but I think there is no option. Nevertheless, this lock down will end, and it will be the last one in UK, till the next pandemic disease. There were 614k deaths in 2020 (England and Wales), so by my maths 1218 excess deaths a week, on average (+11.7%). Mercifully in 2021 in UK an estimate of the excess deaths may be as low as 25000, nearly all occuring (date of death) in January and February.
The daily new cases rate, which is currently <22kpd 7-day average, will continue to fall (from its 60kpd peak on 7 Jan) and will drop to below 10k daily cases (positive tests) reported by late Feb (I predict).
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So till March the death rate (as a lagging indicator) though dropping from its 7-day rolling average peak last week (?27 Jan) will still be at levels which mandate continued restrictions (aka 'lock down') imo. And not just because of each and every death, young and old, but also because of the serious illness, mercifully with most recovering. This reads straight across into the stress on the NHS (in all parts of the UK) which is placing unreasonable and unsustainable demands on our NHS staff. And the stress of COVID-19 patients and its complications and frictions mean that other potentially fatal illnesses are taking more of a toll because of lack of NHS resources and because of patient volition (wanting to stay away from hospitals either to minimise the risk of catching COVID-19 or because they don't want to take resources away from (they think) iller patients). In mid-March the death rate (by date of death) will plummet (my prediction) - a combination of low infection levels and immunisation of the most vulnerable.
Vaccination of the first tranche by 15 Feb (Groups 1-4 - say 12M - takes into account 20% refusals (variety of reasons)) will mean that, by 26 Feb (15 Feb + 11 days) 88% of people who unvaccinated would catch COVID-19, then develop serious illness (some then dying), will NOT (even) develop serious illness. Win! (for those vaccinated, and for the NHS both in terms of numbers of patients and staff illness and self-isolation absence, and probably for all those (1.2M, say) that the 12M don't transmit the infection to - but we haven't got evidence for that.)
Easing of lock down in March may (will) have an effect of increasing the R number (R was 0.98 (range of 0.92 to 1.04) on 22 Jan, and dropping, so by March, well below 1.0) but that will be countered (in terms of number of cases) by the reduced number of the population 'in play': ~18% (12M) will have been vaccinated, rising weekly, to which add those who've had COVID-19 and who still have a sufficient level of antibodies - maybe 7M. So the 'new case' rate will be low and probably fall.
These factors and effects mean that reducing the restrictions (aka ending lock down) then will be a reasonable government decision, and one which avoids accusations of delay and procrastination (though no doubt there will be other views and criticisms, and rightly so, we live in an open society).
Provided vaccine supplies remain sufficient (to allow 2.5M doses delivered per week), we should have vaccinated all the Groups (1-9 - #27M (NB 33M less 20%)) laid out by JCVI by mid Apr (all over 50s and and - see JCVI list). NB takes into account that second doses will take about half the delivery from 14 Mar onwards.
The adult (over 16) population of UK is 67M - ONS, (54M adults). At that vaccination rate (2.5M per week, half is second dose) we might hope to reach herd immunity at 80% (of adult population so 43M, opinions vary on the percentage required which depends on several factors) by early July. (NB I am not counting in any of the unvaccinated million + who've had COVID-19 and retained sufficient antibodies to get to 80%.) So rather better than the “full year”. The summer months (the average number of excess deaths mid-Jun to mid-Sep 2020 was very low) will also help. And in July and August the remainder (10M) of the adult population (O/16) and vulnerable under 16s (clinical judgement at this stage) can be vaccinated. If the decision is taken to vaccinate under 16s, this might neatly be achieved by doing so on in the first week of term.
Summer holiday in UK everyone? Let's hope for good weather and tailwinds.
 
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Ajax Bay

Guru
Location
East Devon
REACT-1: real-time assessment of community transmission of coronavirus (COVID-19) in January 2021
Findings from the eighth report of REACT, into levels of infection 6-22 Jan show infections in England have flattened, with signs of decline at the end of the reporting period.
"The NHS is under significant pressure in England with over 37,000 people in hospital with the virus, twice as many as the first peak in April. 4,076 people are on ventilators, more than at any time in the pandemic.
"Levels of infection varied across the regions and was highest in London, with 1 in 35 people infected, and nationally highest among those aged 18 to 24.
  • national prevalence was 1.57%, or 1570 per 100,000 people infected
  • national R is estimated at 0.98 with a range of 0.92 to 1.04
  • regional prevalence was highest in London at 2.83%
  • East of England at 1.78%
  • West Midlands at 1.66%
  • South East at 1.61%
  • North West at 1.38%
  • North East at 1.22%
  • East Midlands at 1.16%
  • Yorkshire and the Humber 0.80%
  • South West at 0.87%
  • prevalence increased nationally in all adult age groups and was highest in 18 to 24 year olds at 2.44%. Prevalence in the over 65s is 0.93%
  • large household size, living in a deprived neighbourhood, and black and Asian ethnicity were more likely to test positive compared to smaller households, less deprived neighbourhoods and other ethnicities
  • healthcare and care home workers, and other key workers were more likely to test positive compared to other workers"
  • https://www.gov.uk/government/news/latest-findings-from-covid-19-study-published-january-2021
 
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mjr

Comfy armchair to one person & a plank to the next
[...] Nevertheless, this lock down will end, and it will be the last one in UK, till the next pandemic disease.
I think that is a very optimistic prediction. There are still loads of ways we could end up with a fourth covid lockdown (with or without a fourth wave), including ending this lockdown too early or too fast, or the high case numbers globally enabling a variation that resists the current vaccine, amongst many other ways.

That remains the biggest problem with this crisis: it only takes one government and/or population to fark up basically just on one aspect and to be unlucky and this damned virus kills thousands more and sets us back months.

There were 614k deaths in 2020 (England and Wales), so by my maths 1218 excess deaths a week, on average (+11.7%).
As others have noted, that measure does ignore the effect of the anti-covid measures in reducing deaths from other respiratory illnesses.

I also want to remind people that this is not just about deaths, but also lives that will be shortened or impaired by so-called "long covid" effects.

I hope the predictions are correct, mostly because I don't want more deaths but also because I'd like to go for a tour this summer, but they really do seem very optimistic.

A snapshot of Lewisham (London) active covid cases from the Zoe app, which has tended to precede ONS data. Now down to pre-Christmas levels.
Alternative interpretation: back down to the level when we should have locked down instead of people having Christmas parties (not legal in Lewisham but I bet many did). Actually, that looks a bit like Lewisham is back down to 150% of the level at the start of Lockdown 2, which is about the national average.

Which is still about 2000% of what it was when they started easing Lockdown 1, if I'm reading the graphs correctly...
 

deptfordmarmoset

Full time tea drinker
Location
Armonmy Way
Alternative interpretation: back down to the level when we should have locked down instead of people having Christmas parties (not legal in Lewisham but I bet many did). Actually, that looks a bit like Lewisham is back down to 150% of the level at the start of Lockdown 2, which is about the national average.

Which is still about 2000% of what it was when they started easing Lockdown 1, if I'm reading the graphs correctly...
Levels here were low and stable from the end of lockdown 1 until the schools went back, when they started climbing up again. That's when I started keeping a tally of the local situation. It's notable that there wasn't a November bulge here, though I was strongly in favour of having an extended half term ''circuit breaker''. And then I watched the B1.1.1.7 strain working its way west along the Thames (and ripping through S Wales) before exploding here with the aid of the Christmas insanity.
 

tom73

Guru
Location
Yorkshire
This and the mental health cost, for bereaved, some health workers I'm sure something akin to PTSD will become evident, it's going to be a very sad point in the history books for sure.
That’s a real big unknown and unless they are beavering away on a plan now. It’s going to make staff shortages now look nothing. Many who are 50/50 about leaving before may well now leave. With an ageing nursing work force and the ever growing shortage in GP’S. Unless big plans are put in place now it going to to to see health left in a poor state. At a time it’s going to be expected to deal with the post mess.

The bereavement post covid will be massive and it’s hardly been talked about. I also suspect a big increase in survivor guilt as well adding to the work load , add in the mental health effect on young people the massively already overloaded CAMS will need more funding and a plan too.

Fulling the health services with less qualified cheeper roles as they’ve been going just won’t cut the post Covid health needs. The government will need to really turn on the money tap across the board.
 
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