Chain lubrication, the balance of pros versus cons

[Chief Broom]

As a newbie ive been following this thread with interest, im no stranger to chain maintenance on motorcycles where a automatic oiler did the necessary. I will be following the oil and rag regime but think i'll oil the chain when i come back from a ride rather than when i set off. My logic is that the chain doesnt need to be awash with oil which'll attract debris..just enough to get in the links, so i'll be using oil to help clean it and the lubing is a bi-product of this.
Re-motorcycle chain, if a m/c chain is left unlubed it will destroy itself in short order whatever type it is ie sealed or not.

 

[PaulSB]

@Chief Broom that's just about all you need to do.

 

[Ajax Bay]

I understand cable stretch
Chains don't "lengthen" they wear

Well Paul, while we wait for 'proof' (need a control for that experiment, I think), share your understanding of braided stainless steel cable stretch. Just how much occurs on a rear gear cable of, say, 1600mm?

Spoiler: Maths

https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/chain-rattling.270099/#post-6249299

And to be fair to the OP, and by golly this community has been fair and polite, chains do lengthen: they get longer, by wear, whether oiled or dry. Maybe the OP is doing Coker mileages - she'd need a new chain every second day.

 

[PaulSB]

Well Paul, while we wait for 'proof' (need a control for that experiment, I think), share your understanding of braided stainless steel cable stretch. Just how much occurs on a rear gear cable of, say, 1600mm?

Spoiler: Maths

https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/chain-rattling.270099/#post-6249299

And to be fair to the OP, and by golly this community has been fair and polite, chains do lengthen: they get longer, by wear, whether oiled or dry. Maybe the OP is doing Coker mileages - she'd need a new chain every second day.

I haven't opened your spoiler, yet, to avoid influencing my answer. When I say "understand" I don't mean I have knowledge of how this occurs but that I understand it happens and it makes sense to me. A new cable is under some tension/stress after installation and adjustment. My understanding is as the rider repeatedly changes gear up and down this adds to or relaxes the tension/stress of the cable. This potentially would cause it to lengthen, slacken or whatever word we choose making the gear change a bit sloppy. My LBS always say to me words on the lines of "if the cable stretches a bit pop back in." After 20+ years I tend to believe them.

When you say chains do lengthen is this in a measurable length? To be ridiculous going from 100cm to 101cm? I understood "lengthen" to refer to wear in each link on the rollers making the gap which engages on the teeth wider giving an impression of the chain lengthening.

Forgive my lack of knowledge or even complete misunderstanding. I'm not a mechanical sort of person. Beyond changing tubes and fixing a snapped chain I go to the LBS!

 

[PaulSB]

@Ajax Bay I've now read your spoiler. You are using knowledge way beyond me and I accept what you're saying. I couldn't begin to argue against it.

To my mind there's a key phrase in your post, "settling in" which I feel is a far better way of describing what I've always understood as cable stretch. A cable has been changed, everything careful adjusted under workshop conditions but then a few weeks on the road under working conditions may alter those careful adjustments meaning a tweak is needed.

Reasonable for layman's terms?

 

[Ajax Bay]

That last post was made because there are those who dance on the head of a pin and say that a steel cable does stretch. Well of course it does, elastically by very roughly to amount I calculated, and has no adverse effect on shifting (and zero on braking). A newly fitted cable will often 'settle' as you describe - this is ferrules not being pushed fully on, mainly, and under tension, settling.

When you say chains do lengthen is this in a measurable length? To be ridiculous going from 100cm to 101cm? I understood "lengthen" to refer to wear in each link on the rollers making the gap which engages on the teeth wider giving an impression of the chain lengthening.

Off topic: Believe it or not chains lengthen 'ridiculously' to at least this percentage eg 1%. If you then fit a new chain it will skip and one must change the cassette. For expensive cassettes it makes sense to change the chain once it elongates more than 0.5% (and certainly before 0.75%). That way the new chain will be happy and you'll likely get 3 chains (maybe 4) per cassette.
At 9 speed (and certainly fewer) the economics are more balanced: it's reasonable to run cassette and chain on together until they start to skip, and then change both (having procured both ready so to do). I'd expect 6000km that way.
Bear in mind that this approach will wear chainrings a bit more, but <=9sp rings are inexpensive, and they'll still do 20,000+km.

 

[PaulSB]

@Ajax Bay staying off topic for a bit. Please could you explain why a chain lengthens?

I already adopt the approach you suggest on chains. I'll change the cassette and chain when the LBS advises, usually get three or four chains as you suggest and then change again. This usually gives me two good weather seasons of +/- 7 months and perhaps 7-8000 miles. Some my think it rather costly but spread over two years and the mileage I feel it's OK.

 

[Blue Hills]

For expensive cassettes it makes sense to change the chain once it elongates more than 0.5% (and certainly before 0.75%). That way the new chain will be happy and you'll likely get 3 chains (maybe 4) per cassette.
At 9 speed (and certainly fewer) the economics are more balanced: it's reasonable to run cassette and chain on together until they start to skip, and then change both (having procured both ready so to do). I'd expect 6000km that way.
Bear in mind that this approach will wear chainrings a bit more, but <=9sp rings are inexpensive, and they'll still do 20,000+km.

I used to do that on a 9 speed bike - once a year just swapped chain and cassette. These days (no bikes above 9) I tend to swap chains at 0.75 and see how I get on. I well remember a fairly extended "discussion" with someone on here insisting that my 9 speed chains had to be dumped at 0.5 - turns out he was running a 10 or 11 speed and of course the chain checkers are different for above 9 speed.

 

[Ajax Bay]

@PaulSB "Why [does] a chain lengthen?" Off topic: @DRM gave the answer to this on Page 1 (but see below). The chain's links' side plates do not 'stretch'. But the pins inside the bushings do wear and there's one pin every half 1" link (obviously each pin is shared by two adjacent half links etc etc). Each half link is 12.7mm long. It only needs the ?~2mm) pin to wear by 0.07mm to mean the chain has elongated by >0.5%. HTH
@Yellow Saddle was the resident expert but they have closed their account so I can't easily search for a comprehensive answer that they is sure to have given.
ETA: Have found it: this was the discussion in 2017: https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/when-to-replace-cassette.215443/
And this was useful (imo): https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/why-a-worn-cassette-cannot-damage-a-new-chain.255700/
No pictures though .

Only one thing causes chain elongation, the holes in the plates wear oval and the pins wear with a groove in them, therefore making the chain longer when under tension,

I let this go v early in this thread - but no, the plates' holes do not elongate: if tension was causing that the chain would fail very soon after, because the side plate would have suffered plastic deformation. "Pins wear with a groove" Tick.

 

[FishFright]

Proof is proof.
Without low viscous / oil lubrication, my chains lengtening rate drastically reduced.
All I did with the new chain, is putting grease on the externals of the chain, to prevent rust.
And so far, some weeks later, one small retensioning needed. After a new mounted chain, that's remarkable.

Look at the motorcycle world. Some chains have sealing between the link parts, in order to prevent external particles getting in. They also prevent internally worn off particles getting out.
If the latter were a similar let alone a higher wear cause, the much more expensive sealing would serve nothing, a cost for nothing.
Therefore, and as said, it's chosing the least worse of problems.

If you want to provide an actual proof and not just an anecdote then do it correctly. Firstly by researching what a proof of concept is and how to achieve it .

 

[silva]

Some time further without oil, instead a couple times applied that cheap 3 € / kilo viscous aircraft/door hinges grease.
The period after mounting the new Regina Urban OROX type 420 chain, just like the previous time start 2020, there is some muck / some clots - that white grease the chain is delivered with, that is pushed out (partly?).
I smeared these open with a cloth, to spread it over the externals, as addition to my grease.
As now proved after riding enough (too many :P ) through downpours, and unlike last year: NO rust on the chain. Last year brown substance even spilled out between the side plates, indicating internal rust.

At 1st sight rather odd, because the chain appears close to bare metal. But when looking closely: it's covered by a metallic looking grey substance, I guess the mix of both greases, that somewhat covers the gaps between the link parts, maybe blocking dirt / water from getting in.
The chain still runs totally silent (despite the seriously worn, but flipped regularly (hurah for the dead easy M12 bolts that now replace the tiny original chainring bolts with sleeved nuts) so no sharkfins, Velosolo chainring) - something I never experienced before with oil lubrication, there it was just the first couple days, then a couple days hearing blotter, then just rough / noise, as before oil lubrication.
Also remarkable: no dirt on the chain. Apparently, again unlike oil lubrication, dust/sand/whatever, doesn't stick in / stay on the grease.

So, so far it looks promising.
What effect it will have on chain wear, will only be proved the moment the tensioner reached front end, though.
Even if that would be the same, the grease inflicts me much less cleaning work on the chain than the oil.
So far I had to turn/move this eccentric bottom bracket tensioner about 1/3th of the distance I had with the previous chain with oil lubrication, same time, same daily distances.

@Yellow Saddle was the resident expert but they have closed their account so I can't easily search for a comprehensive answer that they is sure to have given.

Aside and also not my business, asked nevertheless: why account closed?

 

[silva]

If you want to provide an actual proof and not just an anecdote then do it correctly. Firstly by researching what a proof of concept is and how to achieve it .

Hey, I reported practice from the field, not ideas behind coffee...

 

[Ajax Bay]

Aside and also not my business, asked nevertheless: why account closed?

Understand he recognised what a time sink CycleChat is and the pleasure of other opportunities for fun won out.

 

[raleighnut]

That last post was made because there are those who dance on the head of a pin and say that a steel cable does stretch. Well of course it does, elastically by very roughly to amount I calculated, and has no adverse effect on shifting (and zero on braking). A newly fitted cable will often 'settle' as you describe - this is ferrules not being pushed fully on, mainly, and under tension, settling.

Off topic: Believe it or not chains lengthen 'ridiculously' to at least this percentage eg 1%. If you then fit a new chain it will skip and one must change the cassette. For expensive cassettes it makes sense to change the chain once it elongates more than 0.5% (and certainly before 0.75%). That way the new chain will be happy and you'll likely get 3 chains (maybe 4) per cassette.
At 9 speed (and certainly fewer) the economics are more balanced: it's reasonable to run cassette and chain on together until they start to skip, and then change both (having procured both ready so to do). I'd expect 6000km that way.
Bear in mind that this approach will wear chainrings a bit more, but <=9sp rings are inexpensive, and they'll still do 20,000+km.

If you keep the partially worn chains (0,5%) then at the point after 3-4 chains when a new one skips you can fit one of the old ones and it'll be fine, doing this can extend the life of a cassette by 2 or 3 years.
Another bonus is when a workmate has broken a chain on their commuting BSO and has then bought a new chain that skips you can give them a 'part worn' chain that'll run fine saving them the cost of a new cassette/freewheel for a few months (if you're an Agency worker with a couple of kids £30 or so for a new un is a major expense and probably more than the bike is worth)

BTW I keep mine in (washed) plastic takeaway containers and with the chain immersed in oil

 

[FishFright]

Hey, I reported practice from the field, not ideas behind coffee...

Sigh