DaveReading
Don't suffer fools gladly (must try harder!)
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That sounds like something worth bearing in mind, if only I understood what you are saying.
Chain lubrication, the balance of pros versus cons
- Thread starter silva
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Ajax Bay
Guru
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So has the eccenter reached its limit of eccentricity? Not the only thing, I suggest.
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A chain becomes longer due to worn off material from its mating surfaces.
That means that the pitch becomes bigger than the one of the chainring teeth.
The chain then wears the chainring teeth towards accomodating the new pitch.
The chainring teeth tops become shorter, the valleys longer.
This goes on until teeth break off.
In the past, I replaced chainring and cog too when replacing chain.
But begin 2019, I decided to skip the chainring replacement. Just replaced chain and rear cog.
And I discovered in 2020 that the same worn chainring didn't wear further with the new chain.
Dito in 2021, when I replaced the chain.
And now again, new chain, same ring.
The valleys between the teeth do not increase further. At least, not noticable.
Benefits:
- no ring replacement cost
- no need to flip the chainring anymore, until the chain has worn so that it again starts to wear some teeth (due to asymmetrical wear).
When I would mount a new chainring, I would have to flip it again every month or so, everytime sharkfin shape makes rollers harder to disengage, aggravating wear. Keeping the old one eliminates that work.
No... its end position... to the front... the eccenter is just a second axle rotatable around the axle and fixed in that position by a clamp in the frame and two pinch bolts tensioning it together. My moving that second axle forward, the chain can be retensioned when wear made it too slack.
Graphically it looks like a cilinder where the axle goes through, within an oval module.
DaveReading
Don't suffer fools gladly (must try harder!)
- Location
- Reading, obvs
Thanks, that's much clearer.
Ming the Merciless
There is no mercy
- Location
- Inside my skull
The chain rings on my first racer lasted from 1984 till 2002. I used to rotate the rings every time I pedalled.
https://www.velosolo.co.uk/shopdisc.html
You need to have pedaled backwards as much as forward, in order to get a refund.
In my post 23 august 2022, https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/c...lance-of-pros-versus-cons.277435/post-6797056 I said the eccenter reached its end, chain replavcement. Also cog since several teeth broken, but not by a new, by a previously worn, my last one of those.
As said there, my previous chain lasted nov2021-aug2022, at 60 km daily.
That previous chain lasted 10 months. with the first
Flash forward to today, eccenter again reached its end.
This chain lasted sep2022-jan2023 so 5 months, the shortest period so far.
I oiled it from start, everytime the rollers looked dry, I wipe off as much dirt I can, then reoil.
Should expect longer living, not, even shortest of all.
Chainring and cog were both worn towards end of tensioner position, from the beginning that this last new chain was installed. Apparently, the mpre intense lubrication and cleaning regime, didn't make the chain wear slower.
Weird but that's what the eccenter position today proves.
Tomorrow gonna replace the chain by a new one.
And a new experiment, I bought 2 batches of that Regina 420 motorcycle chain, batch 1 had length 134 and I need 106.on my fixie. previous replacement I joined two remainders together, and plan tomorrow is to add to that a part of a new full 134L chain, to reach the needed 106 (105 + quicklink).
Since I don't have extra quicklinks, I'm gonna resuse the one now mounted. See what it gives. Gonna take another old spare with me, in case failure, whatever and however that would happen.
As said there, my previous chain lasted nov2021-aug2022, at 60 km daily.
That previous chain lasted 10 months. with the first
Flash forward to today, eccenter again reached its end.
This chain lasted sep2022-jan2023 so 5 months, the shortest period so far.
I oiled it from start, everytime the rollers looked dry, I wipe off as much dirt I can, then reoil.
Should expect longer living, not, even shortest of all.
Chainring and cog were both worn towards end of tensioner position, from the beginning that this last new chain was installed. Apparently, the mpre intense lubrication and cleaning regime, didn't make the chain wear slower.
Weird but that's what the eccenter position today proves.
Tomorrow gonna replace the chain by a new one.
And a new experiment, I bought 2 batches of that Regina 420 motorcycle chain, batch 1 had length 134 and I need 106.on my fixie. previous replacement I joined two remainders together, and plan tomorrow is to add to that a part of a new full 134L chain, to reach the needed 106 (105 + quicklink).
Since I don't have extra quicklinks, I'm gonna resuse the one now mounted. See what it gives. Gonna take another old spare with me, in case failure, whatever and however that would happen.
presta
Guru
Ok, so let's take this argument and see where it goes.
Assume we have a chain that has worn links that are 5 thou longer: 0.505", just for the sake of argument, and nice round numbers. Consider the tooth at the top of the ring, call it tooth zero: it has the first engagement, so it needs no wear to accommodate the chain. The next tooth round the ring is one link away, so it needs 5 thou of wear to accommodate the 5 thou in one link. Similarly, the next link around is another 505 thou from the previous one, but two links and 1010 thou from tooth zero, so the tooth it engages with will need 10 thou of wear: 5 thou just to keep up with the previous tooth, plus another 5 for the second link. Simliarly for teeth/links 3, 4, 5, 6 etc, each one needs another 5 thou of wear on top of what the previous one had, so if it were a 36 tooth ring with the chain disengaging from tooth 18 at the bottom, that tooth would need 90 thou of wear, being 9.09" from tooth zreo at the top.
But now what happens if you rotate the ring half a turn: the bottom tooth that needed 90 thou of wear is now at the top, and needs none, and the tooth from the top is now at the bottom, and needs 90 thou of wear instead of none. It's patently obvious that the teeth can't adjust their wear pattern as they travel around the cycle, they all have to have the same amount of wear, and if they all have the same wear, they all remain the same distance apart from each other as the wear accumulates.
So how does the ring accommodate chain wear?
Well the distance between each pair of teeth is the same as any other pair, but it's not a constant. The teeth are on a radial pattern, each one centred on a radius of the circle, and the radii of circles are not a fixed disatnce apart, they diverge as you go further from the centre. So all a worn chain needs to do in order to find teeth that are further apart than 0.500" is ride higher up the teeth.
Not only do the teeth not need to wear to accommodate a worn chain, they can't accommodate it by wearing.
The links are not longer, wear of their parts causes rollers to be pushed away further from eachother.
Then, when they run over sprocket teeth they aren't lined up ("increases the pitch") with them anymore.
Since the rollers are forced into that further away from eachother position, they fret away material from the sprocket teeth from the direction they push against them. That material removal results in a sharkfin shape, which aggravates the wear since the hooks sit in the way of the rollers to disengage from the teeth, causing more friction and more wear..
A solution to continue with the normal wear is then to flip the sprocket on its mount. The other side of the teeth then wear, are hollowed out just like the initial side. After some flipping and continued wear, the sprocket teeth, what remains of them, show wide valleys between them. The teeth are still high but short and therefore mechanically weaker.
If you then continu using the worn chain, the teeth will get weakened by the rollers enough to break off.
If you then replace the chain with a new, they won't.
That's all.
Really, that's all.
Then, "rotating" the chainring on its mount, is a second drivetrain story.
See, a human has two legs, walks with them, and pushing sequentially right left right left is the closest mimic of that.
Legs don't push all the time and don't push all the time with the same force either.
A leg pushes when its pedal / crank clock position allows it, and hardest in the optimal leg position.
Thus it makes a difference for chainring teeth, regarding which force N they transmit to the chain tollers, on which position they are located, relative to the pedal > crank arm position.
The rollers thus don't wear the the chainring teeth evenly, they wear them more at crank position from which max force is given, than position from which min force is given.
When you notice that some teeth got worn and thus weakened alot more than others, and continuing will break them off, an idea is to then rotate the chainring on its mount (5 bolts usually), so that other, less worn teeth, now take the biggest burden.
And that's also it.
Really.
The goal of both... ehm... kinds of interventions, is to be able to use parts longer.
Much like when you suffer a flat.
You then have some options.
- Set it against a tree outta the way of people, walk home, and buy a new bike.
- Bin the wheel and install a spare.
- Bin the inner tube and install a new.
- patch the inner tube and put it back
Rotating and flipping a chainring on its mount, shares that same goal.
Flipping a rear cog, too. Rotating a rear cog on its mount can be useful too, if you do it instead of dealing drugs on street.
Then, when they run over sprocket teeth they aren't lined up ("increases the pitch") with them anymore.
Since the rollers are forced into that further away from eachother position, they fret away material from the sprocket teeth from the direction they push against them. That material removal results in a sharkfin shape, which aggravates the wear since the hooks sit in the way of the rollers to disengage from the teeth, causing more friction and more wear..
A solution to continue with the normal wear is then to flip the sprocket on its mount. The other side of the teeth then wear, are hollowed out just like the initial side. After some flipping and continued wear, the sprocket teeth, what remains of them, show wide valleys between them. The teeth are still high but short and therefore mechanically weaker.
If you then continu using the worn chain, the teeth will get weakened by the rollers enough to break off.
If you then replace the chain with a new, they won't.
That's all.
Really, that's all.
Then, "rotating" the chainring on its mount, is a second drivetrain story.
See, a human has two legs, walks with them, and pushing sequentially right left right left is the closest mimic of that.
Legs don't push all the time and don't push all the time with the same force either.
A leg pushes when its pedal / crank clock position allows it, and hardest in the optimal leg position.
Thus it makes a difference for chainring teeth, regarding which force N they transmit to the chain tollers, on which position they are located, relative to the pedal > crank arm position.
The rollers thus don't wear the the chainring teeth evenly, they wear them more at crank position from which max force is given, than position from which min force is given.
When you notice that some teeth got worn and thus weakened alot more than others, and continuing will break them off, an idea is to then rotate the chainring on its mount (5 bolts usually), so that other, less worn teeth, now take the biggest burden.
And that's also it.
Really.
The goal of both... ehm... kinds of interventions, is to be able to use parts longer.
Much like when you suffer a flat.
You then have some options.
- Set it against a tree outta the way of people, walk home, and buy a new bike.
- Bin the wheel and install a spare.
- Bin the inner tube and install a new.
- patch the inner tube and put it back
Rotating and flipping a chainring on its mount, shares that same goal.
Flipping a rear cog, too. Rotating a rear cog on its mount can be useful too, if you do it instead of dealing drugs on street.
Oh but they need to wear because if the increasing force isn't absorbed, the will end up breaking off in brandnew state.
Just imagine a sprocket with super teeth. Teeth that are so Superman Strong, that nothing will wear or break them.
What then happens: the rollers cannot insert between the teeth. Without that, how ould they be able to transmit the pedaling force? The drivetrain will just STALL. Hard on hard. If nothing "gives", then it's stalling eh? DRIVETRAIN BLOCK ENGAGED JIM. DEAD STOP ACHIEVED JIM. Wear is "giving". Breaking off, too.
Why do new sprockets "give" to worn roller chain: because they have to.
Why do worn sprockets NOT "give" to new roller chain: because they don't have to, there is room avail for the rollers, entirely up to the wear state the previous chain had.
And ultimately, why does any sprocket "give" to any chain: because the chain rollers outnumber the sprocket teeth (in my case 106 rollers against 47 chainring teeth and 16 rear cog teeth. And not only outnumber, in case the chainring, it's roller chain steel versus chainring aluminium, in case the rear cog, it's steel versus chromoly (Velosolo rear cog), more of a match, and also reason to chose chromoly, to compensate for that bigger outnumbered figure.
Yesterday evening I took out my storage a new Regina Urban 420 oroy and two remainder parts of previous already linked together, with one outer link with its pin half in..
Idea is to use those remainder parts and add new links to get the desired 105 total - ends inner links, then as 106th link the quicklink, which I will recuperate from the now to replace chain.
What I noticed: those remainder parts from my storage, I had put them in an empty box of such a chain.
Regina delivers the chains folded inside a kinda butter paper.
Those remainder parts, these appear quite dry now, and have alike some black dust on them, still some white paste visible, but remarkable how just storing these in a box in a cabinet apparently didn't prevent drying out.
While the other, bicycle chains I have in my spare, such as the UK Gusset Tank Chain model spares, which are delivered in transparent oil in plastic, still look like they were.
Also, that butter paper shows shome round brown dots, alike pin ends rusting against them, though I don't see rust on ends so unsure.
I now wonder why Regina chosed grease instead of oil.
As proved after the first rain day riding with this chain model, after assuming oil on new chain not needed, the grease doesn't prevent rust at all.
And lubrication, oil is fluid, low viscosity, and that is needed too, since lubrication has to happen between mating surfaces, that push away the lube, which then has to flow back after surfaces separate again.
So I don't get the point of using a grease.
It just inflicts some weeks mucky oil that I wipe off.
Seeing this state of chains purchased 3 years ago, I think I'm gonna need to empackage them inside plastic instead of that butter paper. Since my plan now is to fully use all links, by joining remainders (my last and biggest batch purchased even had 146 while I need 106) and reuse quicklinks and I purchased 6 of the latter separately from the beginning.
Because, paper absorbs moisture, makes it harder for moisture to dry away, maintains a wet status, makes rust thus worser.
That are thus weird choices of Regina.
Butter paper, and grease instead of oil, both together is like designed for rust.
Idea is to use those remainder parts and add new links to get the desired 105 total - ends inner links, then as 106th link the quicklink, which I will recuperate from the now to replace chain.
What I noticed: those remainder parts from my storage, I had put them in an empty box of such a chain.
Regina delivers the chains folded inside a kinda butter paper.
Those remainder parts, these appear quite dry now, and have alike some black dust on them, still some white paste visible, but remarkable how just storing these in a box in a cabinet apparently didn't prevent drying out.
While the other, bicycle chains I have in my spare, such as the UK Gusset Tank Chain model spares, which are delivered in transparent oil in plastic, still look like they were.
Also, that butter paper shows shome round brown dots, alike pin ends rusting against them, though I don't see rust on ends so unsure.
I now wonder why Regina chosed grease instead of oil.
As proved after the first rain day riding with this chain model, after assuming oil on new chain not needed, the grease doesn't prevent rust at all.
And lubrication, oil is fluid, low viscosity, and that is needed too, since lubrication has to happen between mating surfaces, that push away the lube, which then has to flow back after surfaces separate again.
So I don't get the point of using a grease.
It just inflicts some weeks mucky oil that I wipe off.
Seeing this state of chains purchased 3 years ago, I think I'm gonna need to empackage them inside plastic instead of that butter paper. Since my plan now is to fully use all links, by joining remainders (my last and biggest batch purchased even had 146 while I need 106) and reuse quicklinks and I purchased 6 of the latter separately from the beginning.
Because, paper absorbs moisture, makes it harder for moisture to dry away, maintains a wet status, makes rust thus worser.
That are thus weird choices of Regina.
Butter paper, and grease instead of oil, both together is like designed for rust.
Fields Electric
Active Member
I am looking very carefully at different oils. Some are thick and sticky and attract dirt like flies to s**t. Others are waxy and was off at the slightest hint of water. The higher quality mineral oils lubricate without attracting dirt. My Brompton jockey wheels also need a lot less de-gunk and less often. I am carefully monitoring the life of the chain. Which currently needs replacing every 12 months / 900 miles.
An hour ago I "constructed" the replacement chain from remaining parts from 2 previous, and had to add a piece of a new one with 11 outer and 12 inner in order to reach the needed 105 length ending in both inners to then later on join with a 106th being the quick link..
I purchased a stock of 3(L134) + 10(L134) + 20(L146 another shop) of those Regina Urban 420 oroy models
And 5 separate quicklinks.
I have stocks of alot, mostly purchased over the 2011-2019 period, because it was foreseeable that after 10 years price stability, governments would make another putsch forward there, and indeed, those lockdowns in 2020 and then sanctions last year, and all the spendings these served as excuse for, and then last, increase wages etc, to "lock" the price increases hard in.
It was some messing 'round like before, the Velosolo YC-324 has a too short pin to push a 420 chain far enough, so I just use it to get the pin end enough in the plate to have a centering for the punch to hammer it further as far as needed, on a block steel with a hole drilled in it.
Then insert the inner end of one part between the plates with the pin at one side, then hammer the pin back through, and in a position where the plates rotate easy over the pin ends.
That sticky white grease that Regina puts on it, well, what on earth made them decide that, is a mystery to me.
It attracts dirt as a magnetic, doesn't prevent corrosion (even not in its butterpaper delivery status, as proved by brown circles stamped in the paper by the pin ends, and can't see how it would lubricate, since it's thick, viscous, it gets pushed out to never flow back.
And even worse, the chain becomes STIFF due to the grease.
If I take a Gusset tank chain, delivered with oil on it, it just hangs down, even just one link does.
While that Regina chain, lol, I have to push it into a desired position, it feels more like folding than turning hanging.
So it looks like I'm gonna need to take some measures to make my Regina chain stock survive a couple decades without becoming rusty as hell.
This summer, hot day, outside in the sun, all moisture out (hope the white grease itself isn't a cause) then all in plastic.
I decided to NOT replace the chain today, I thought yesterday the eccenter reached the end but closer inspection not yet.
And my rear cog doesn't rattle yet, which I experienced as a signal of sharkfin shape caused roller hopping.
When I start to hear that back, I'll replace immediately, because as proved last time, 5 teeth broken off.
The next chain will be a "free" one, since I had more than 106 links left of the new one.
The Regina chains were 16-17 euro at the time, and I purchased the extra 20 just in time, the order was entered, and a week later later price tag on their page was 22. Also 146 instead of 134 length, so more links for the money, which now starts to matter since this is now my first chain constructed from remainders.
Not sure now what to do in the future.
As now proved a second time, a worn chainring + cog reduces chain life to 1/3, thus rather serious.
A plausible reason is that the force isn't distributed anymore, just one teeth. This is compensated by equally less contact occurrences but apparently force is the dominant element.
Against that drawback, sits the benefit of not having to flip ring cog upon each return of rattling which is due to sharkfin shape.
I thus have:
- scenario 1 a chain, ring and cog that last 2 years, alot flipping work, to then be all replaced.
- scenario 2 a chain that lasts 4 months, no flipping work, to then be replaced alone
- A Velosolo chainring 60 euro.
- A Velosolo cog 20 euro.
- A Regina chain 20 euro.
Looks to me like no clear winner loser scenario.
As proved, replace the chain before teeth break off, and so far I didn't need to replace sprockets in 4 years (start 2019, ring mounted, now start 2023).
The con of that pro is chains x 4.
But my interest is used up today.
Something to think later over.
I purchased a stock of 3(L134) + 10(L134) + 20(L146 another shop) of those Regina Urban 420 oroy models
And 5 separate quicklinks.
I have stocks of alot, mostly purchased over the 2011-2019 period, because it was foreseeable that after 10 years price stability, governments would make another putsch forward there, and indeed, those lockdowns in 2020 and then sanctions last year, and all the spendings these served as excuse for, and then last, increase wages etc, to "lock" the price increases hard in.
It was some messing 'round like before, the Velosolo YC-324 has a too short pin to push a 420 chain far enough, so I just use it to get the pin end enough in the plate to have a centering for the punch to hammer it further as far as needed, on a block steel with a hole drilled in it.
Then insert the inner end of one part between the plates with the pin at one side, then hammer the pin back through, and in a position where the plates rotate easy over the pin ends.
That sticky white grease that Regina puts on it, well, what on earth made them decide that, is a mystery to me.
It attracts dirt as a magnetic, doesn't prevent corrosion (even not in its butterpaper delivery status, as proved by brown circles stamped in the paper by the pin ends, and can't see how it would lubricate, since it's thick, viscous, it gets pushed out to never flow back.
And even worse, the chain becomes STIFF due to the grease.
If I take a Gusset tank chain, delivered with oil on it, it just hangs down, even just one link does.
While that Regina chain, lol, I have to push it into a desired position, it feels more like folding than turning hanging.
So it looks like I'm gonna need to take some measures to make my Regina chain stock survive a couple decades without becoming rusty as hell.
This summer, hot day, outside in the sun, all moisture out (hope the white grease itself isn't a cause) then all in plastic.
I decided to NOT replace the chain today, I thought yesterday the eccenter reached the end but closer inspection not yet.
And my rear cog doesn't rattle yet, which I experienced as a signal of sharkfin shape caused roller hopping.
When I start to hear that back, I'll replace immediately, because as proved last time, 5 teeth broken off.
The next chain will be a "free" one, since I had more than 106 links left of the new one.
The Regina chains were 16-17 euro at the time, and I purchased the extra 20 just in time, the order was entered, and a week later later price tag on their page was 22. Also 146 instead of 134 length, so more links for the money, which now starts to matter since this is now my first chain constructed from remainders.
Not sure now what to do in the future.
As now proved a second time, a worn chainring + cog reduces chain life to 1/3, thus rather serious.
A plausible reason is that the force isn't distributed anymore, just one teeth. This is compensated by equally less contact occurrences but apparently force is the dominant element.
Against that drawback, sits the benefit of not having to flip ring cog upon each return of rattling which is due to sharkfin shape.
I thus have:
- scenario 1 a chain, ring and cog that last 2 years, alot flipping work, to then be all replaced.
- scenario 2 a chain that lasts 4 months, no flipping work, to then be replaced alone
- A Velosolo chainring 60 euro.
- A Velosolo cog 20 euro.
- A Regina chain 20 euro.
Looks to me like no clear winner loser scenario.
As proved, replace the chain before teeth break off, and so far I didn't need to replace sprockets in 4 years (start 2019, ring mounted, now start 2023).
The con of that pro is chains x 4.
But my interest is used up today.
Something to think later over.
Ajax Bay
Guru
- Location
- East Devon
The eccenter has nearly reached its limit of eccentricity. Not the only thing, I suggest.
Don't leave it too long: eccentricity has limits.
