Calling forum gun experts. How does a dummy firearm kill?

[ebikeerwidnes]

Clint is pointing to a position off camera.

Agreed - it was just an example - but if the gun is accidentally hot it is still too close
I am sure I could have found a more direct example - but didn't

 

[Alex321]

Ihaven't read ll of this thread - so apologies if this has been said before
but I read yesterday, in a few places but possibly all from a similar source, that there is a professional armourer on any set that will be using guns of any kind.
The last thing they want is the 'talent' doing anything to a gun after the armourer has confirmed that it is in the right state - 'cold' in this case.
The actor does exactly what the script says to do with the gun - and nothing else. The armourer is responsible for the gun and has it is sight at all times.
Based on this - something that should be very clear and strictly enforced - was not!

That is basically what almost all the posts in the thread have been saying. You didn't need to read much of it.

 

[Pale Rider]

Clint is pointing to a position off camera.

Some film bloke on the radio reckoned all such shots were done 10 or 20 degrees off the camera.

However, to use the film John Wick as an example, Keannu Reeves kills lots of baddies at point blank range - a lot less than a metre.

The gun simply must be pointing at the actor playing the baddie, although possibly not pointing at the cameraman.

 

[cougie uk]

Some film bloke on the radio reckoned all such shots were done 10 or 20 degrees off the camera.

However, to use the film John Wick as an example, Keannu Reeves kills lots of baddies at point blank range - a lot less than a metre.

The gun simply must be pointing at the actor playing the baddie, although possibly not pointing at the cameraman.

They can use remote cameras now.
Why point a firearm at a human if you don't need to.

If you absolutely need that shot then they have plexi glass with the camera lens poking through a hole.

Clearly there's been a good few mistakes on this film.

Considering how often you see guns on TV and film - this is the first fatality in over 25 years - the guidelines have worked pretty well.

 

[Badger_Boom]

Although I understand that on set reliance is placed on 'experts' telling the holder the condition of the weapon, I would be very uncomfortable if I couldn't do that myself.

 

[Joey Shabadoo]

I read another thing from an armourer who said "An actor cannot just know how all these different devices work. That is why they do not “check the gun.” ... "process must be followed, and the process does not include the talent messing with things unless we give them something they can mess with."

Which is to say it's not the actor's job, or necessarily within their capability to check that a gun is safe, because of the variety of different barrels, triggers and ammunition that may be provided.

Just something I read. No idea how true it is.

Link. https://www.quora.com/How-do-movie-...e-set-with-Alec-Baldwin/answer/Nelson-McKeeby

I used to be a stage manager and can confirm that very few actors know how anything technical works. How some of them operate a door handle to get to rehearsals amazes me. You give them a prop, say "press this" and that's it.

 

[Arrowfoot]

I read another thing from an armourer who said "An actor cannot just know how all these different devices work. That is why they do not “check the gun.” ... "process must be followed, and the process does not include the talent messing with things unless we give them something they can mess with."

Which is to say it's not the actor's job, or necessarily within their capability to check that a gun is safe, because of the variety of different barrels, triggers and ammunition that may be provided.

Just something I read. No idea how true it is.

Link. https://www.quora.com/How-do-movie-...e-set-with-Alec-Baldwin/answer/Nelson-McKeeby

I tend to agree. One practice in movie making is inserting a wadding in the barrel with a blank. The fired blank ignites the wadding and it creates a fiery effect A special effects thingy. Yes, the weapon is not to be looked at by the talent makes sense. Hence the protocol of shouting "Cold" when handing it to the talent.

Baldwin would be clear in this regard but there are other things he might have to clear - not pointing it at a person, the provision of protective screens etc which others have mentioned.

 

[Drago]

I read another thing from an armourer who said "An actor cannot just know how all these different devices work. That is why they do not “check the gun.” ... "process must be followed, and the process does not include the talent messing with things unless we give them something they can mess with."

Im not an actor and I know the drill.

This idea that poor actor luvvies shouldn't understand the safety implications of any dangerous items they handle is preposterous. Moreso in the case if Baldwin, who is the producer and who was responsible for hiring all the staff, including rhe 'experts'.

You want to wave firearms around then your occupation is utterly irrelevant, you should understand basic safety drills. When I shoot I do so with fellow retirees, coppers, MD's, small businessment, air conditioning engineers and a teacher, and we all know what we're doing. Being a thespian does not protect your life or the lives of others from harm due to negligence, as Baldwin himself has sadly discovered.

Indeed, an armourer should be ruddy well making sure that anyone who touches a weapin observes the drills.

Assumptions are the mother of all F ups. An actor having to assume that someone else has done their job properly in order not to maim or kill someone is another one waiting to happen. There's no excuse, they could learn cock-lock-look and the associated theory in a day.

 

[Pale Rider]

Shades here of some sportsmen who think the various assault offences do not apply when they cross the white line onto the pitch.

No actor can be expected to have the knowledge of a gunsmith, but they can be expected to know enough not to kill someone.

 

[dodgy]

I think what the armourer meant (and remember, he's an armourer, you aren't Monsieur Drago), is that due to the sheer massive variety of firearms with associated weapons drills (you will know that drills vary according to weapon, loading etc) it's not realistic to expect a layperson to be familiar with all safety protocols for all weapons - that's why they have an armourer on set.

 

[Drago]

Absolutely Mr Rider. The don't need to be an expert, They don't need to know how to field strip a P226, or zero the sights on an M4, just the basic safety regime.

A morning of theory in the classroom, watching videos and being instructed by an expert, and an afternoon handling the vatious types of weapon they will be handling and practicing the drill would have cost very little in the grand scheme of a hollywood movie budget, and had they done so a woman would still be alive today.

The drill is very simple, very easy, and is the same for all. Show me its not loaded, show me there isn't one in the chamber/breech, and - where the weapons architecture permits - show me the barrel is clear. Then and only then, will i let you hand it to me. That is the same for all firearms, and is not difficult or unrealistic for a layman to master quickly. (Tilt) Cock-Lock-Look is as simple as remembering 3 words.

Im thick as two short ones and I understand it, so theres no reason why Baldwin - who thinks himself intelligent enough to have a high opinion about all sorts of things that no one asked his opinion on - should have any difficulty with the concept.

Interestingly, according to CNN, the assistant director who handed Balwdin the weapon had recently been dismissed from another production over allegations of poor weapons safety on his part.

Indeed, Baldwin's high opinions have had an unforseen twist. He was not a Trump fan, which is fine, everyone is entitled to their opinion, but his public pith taking and lampooning weren't in the best of taste and were rather puerile. Now the boot is on the other foot and Donald Trump Jr is taking revenge by selling "Guns don't kill people - Alec Baldwin does" T shirts and is doing a roaring trade. Selling very well, apparently.

Poor taste of the highest order, but hidden within is a lesson - be careful who you needlessly take the pith out of, because karma can turn the tabkes most unexpectedly.

 

[dodgy]

Fair enough, more safety is a good thing, but just like any other business, they'll want to balance it. I guess most producers think having one or more qualified armourers trusted to handle weapons is the best way. From my experience in forcing encouraging employees to take security seriously in training sessions, it's obvious some are more engaged than others, I would expect the same with actors and weapons drills.

 

[Badger_Boom]

I read another thing from an armourer who said "An actor cannot just know how all these different devices work. That is why they do not “check the gun.” ... "process must be followed, and the process does not include the talent messing with things unless we give them something they can mess with."

Which is to say it's not the actor's job, or necessarily within their capability to check that a gun is safe, because of the variety of different barrels, triggers and ammunition that may be provided.

Just something I read. No idea how true it is.

Link. https://www.quora.com/How-do-movie-...e-set-with-Alec-Baldwin/answer/Nelson-McKeeby

That makes sense to me. I'm qualified to handle six different weapons systems and consider myself to be as safe as anyone else with them. However, even with that knowledge and knowing some basic safety rules I wouldn't trust myself to operate any other safely without training.

 

[DRM]

Shades here of some sportsmen who think the various assault offences do not apply when they cross the white line onto the pitch.

No actor can be expected to have the knowledge of a gunsmith, but they can be expected to know enough not to kill someone.

Exactly lots of people learn to drive a car without needing the knowledge to be able to replace the timing belt, however surely the set armourer could show the actor that the weapon is safe to use in the upcoming shot

 

[cougie uk]

I think that's what is supposed to happen. The actor is shown that it's empty.