Bike Radar forum refugees
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No Ta Doctor
New Member
A bit of cycling philosophy (though some were more interested in debating specific incidents than doing the conceptual work)
https://forum.bikeradar.com/discussion/13080764/to-race-or-to-wait/p1
https://forum.bikeradar.com/discussion/13080764/to-race-or-to-wait/p1
Pinno718
Well-Known Member
- Location
- Way out West
Ah. I did that except I omitted the 'site forum' and .co.uk bit.
Pinno718
Well-Known Member
- Location
- Way out West
It's worthy:
Every GT we seem to get a "race or wait" debate pop up at least once or twice, and pretty much every time the same entrenched opinions seem to be taken.
There are some that *almost* always claim "this is cycling, 'Dumoulin' happens, they should just race" and some that *almost* always decry Team X's (OK, it's Movistar) lack of class in pressing an advantage.
Others will roll back the decades to the 1980's (where coverage was skimpy and we had to have these debates in actual pubs instead of across a million social media platforms) to explain what would and should have happened.
But all of these fall into a trap of thinking that whatever moral codex might exist in cycling it can be examined independently of cycling itself. This is a mistake.
The first position is based on something like a Nietzschean will to power, where what is right is defined by doing what it takes to win (within the framework of the written rules and their enforcement). It's often coupled with an appeal to the gladiatorial aspect of the sport - we as fans are here for blood, we expect to see it spilled and showing mercy is an abhorrent sign of weakness not worthy of a champion.
The second can be based on any number of ethical frameworks, those that we use on a daily basis to assess the goodness/badness of actions in "the real world". And as in the real world, we often mix and match between different frameworks when making our judgements and describing the intricacies of how we make them (did they attack or drive harder or simply not slow down? was it a mechanical or interference from outside the race? was it at a key point of the race or midway through a stage? etc. etc. etc.)
The third is simply an appeal to conservatism - what is right is whatever we have always called right and what is wrong is what we have always called wrong. If it was good enough for Hinault...Merckx...Anquetil...Coppi...Garin then it's good enough for us.
Obviously I've caricatured these positions slightly, they're more nuanced than that and there are other variations and mixtures available, but it seems to me that they all miss a fundamental aspect of cycling.
The important point of the "unwritten rules" is that they have developed and are interpreted within the peloton itself, in response to what we could characterise as the sociological aspect of the sport. The rules are both set and enforced by the riders. They do this against a background of a sport that takes game theory to it's very limits. Every day riders and teams are faced with multiple choices about whether to cooperate or compete, to contribute or exploit. Each of these decisions is tallied up within the peloton, remembered, and forms a character reference for the rider and the team. This all plays out against a background economics where the currency is favours (assuming we're not talking about actual cheating, where the currency might be hard cash, Vino.). This is one of the things we absolutely love about cycling. We love seeing the prisoner's dilemma play out as the break nears the finish line - who can play the game best?
The unwritten rules exist not because they are objectively good or bad, but because within cycling karma exists. Bank some karma now and you may benefit later. Seize an opportunity now and you'll pay for it next time.
Of course, this isn't actually any different to life outside racing bikes (there are strong arguments that all human ethics and sociology essentially evolved in a long game of prisoners dilemma), and within the peloton the same arguments will be made for why attack X was bad but attack Y was OK - but with one difference to when we make them: the peloton will both judge AND sentence. In the end it is the peloton that writes the rules (to the extent that unwritten rules can be written...). In essence, whether the right action is to race or wait is determined by the peloton, after you've made your decision. You will be judged by your peers. And this is why I love cycling.
No Ta Doctor
New Member
Anyone remember the Flanders sweepstake?
https://forum.bikeradar.com/discussion/13023179/br-flanders-sweepstake/p1
Poor Frenchie
https://forum.bikeradar.com/discussion/13023179/br-flanders-sweepstake/p1
Poor Frenchie
Pinno718
Well-Known Member
- Location
- Way out West
I do remember Frenchie. I didn't remember that thread but he often did get his knickers in a twist.
Pinno718
Well-Known Member
- Location
- Way out West
No Ta Doctor
New Member
So, we have achieved immortality
Lanterne Rouge 2024, fully archived (I hope) on the wayback machine
https://web.archive.org/web/2025031...533/the-lanterne-rouge-2024-spoiler-thread/p1
2024 Femmes https://web.archive.org/web/2025031.../the-lanterne-rouge-femmes-avec-zlow-spoilers
2023 - https://web.archive.org/web/2025031...nterne-rouge-2023-thread-definite-spoilers/p1
2023 Femmes - https://web.archive.org/web/2025031...erne-rouge-des-femmes-avec-zlow-2023-spoilers
2022 - https://web.archive.org/web/2025031...03/the-lanterne-rouge-thread-2022-spoilers/p1
2022 Femmes - https://web.archive.org/web/2025031...18861/la-lanterne-rouge-feminin-2022-spoilers
2021 - https://web.archive.org/web/2025031...09/the-lanterne-rouge-thread-2021-spoilers/p1
2020
2019
2018
2017
2016
2015
2014
2013
2012
2011
2010
2009 - https://web.archive.org/web/2025031...dar.com/discussion/12634180/lanterne-rouge/p1
We may finally have preserved the evidence to put @Lanterne Rogue away for life!
PS - apologies for the poor formatting here, I'm absolutely knackered and need bed
Lanterne Rouge 2024, fully archived (I hope) on the wayback machine
https://web.archive.org/web/2025031...533/the-lanterne-rouge-2024-spoiler-thread/p1
2024 Femmes https://web.archive.org/web/2025031.../the-lanterne-rouge-femmes-avec-zlow-spoilers
2023 - https://web.archive.org/web/2025031...nterne-rouge-2023-thread-definite-spoilers/p1
2023 Femmes - https://web.archive.org/web/2025031...erne-rouge-des-femmes-avec-zlow-2023-spoilers
2022 - https://web.archive.org/web/2025031...03/the-lanterne-rouge-thread-2022-spoilers/p1
2022 Femmes - https://web.archive.org/web/2025031...18861/la-lanterne-rouge-feminin-2022-spoilers
2021 - https://web.archive.org/web/2025031...09/the-lanterne-rouge-thread-2021-spoilers/p1
2020
2019
2018
2017
2016
2015
2014
2013
2012
2011
2010
2009 - https://web.archive.org/web/2025031...dar.com/discussion/12634180/lanterne-rouge/p1
We may finally have preserved the evidence to put @Lanterne Rogue away for life!
PS - apologies for the poor formatting here, I'm absolutely knackered and need bed
Last edited:
Pinno718
Well-Known Member
- Location
- Way out West
You my have to put the brakes on this posterity drive, else you might just bust the Cycle Chat server.
OP
OP
briantrumpet
Legendary Member
- Location
- Devon & Die
Turns out that WBM doesn't like doing 2121 pages of the Brexit thread. Oh well, there are a few pages, including PB predicting a narrow out vote, and RC holding forth about... oh, something. Got p2121 too, marking the end of an era.
Pblakeney
Regular
...and yet people keep telling me that I am wrong. 😉
OP
OP
briantrumpet
Legendary Member
- Location
- Devon & Die
Bah - refugee me too. 53k posts. A lot of it codswallop but still proud of it plus my Comprehensive rear mech problem and set up sticky in workshop.
Keep the racket down please BT
Worth archiving your rear mech sticky, @Pinno718 ? Do you want it hyperlinked on your headstone, when the time comes?
