HLaB
Marie Attoinette Fan
Welcome back BMBentMikey said:
BentMikey and a Subaru Driver
- Thread starter Origamist
- Start date
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Indeed, indeed.
There was a time when cyclists thought that being invisible was their best defence. We now know that you get more respect the more visible you are, and that shrinking violets are treated with less respect than those of us who take the time to bring the shortcomings of a minority of drivers to their attention. A bit of an upbraiding (tailored to the type of driver) at the next traffic lights, or a referral to the driver's employer does the world of good. It exposes the shortfall in their appreciation of what, in these parts at least, is the new reality - to quote a phrase 'we're here'.
The comparison between cyclists and gays (all references to lycra aside) is a fruitful one. Homosexual men spent decades in a kind of collective closet and it did them no good whatsoever. Twenty or thirty years ago many of them decided to make the point that they were 'here'. and the climate of opinion changed as a result.
Cyclists face a hostile press, and a proportion of drivers who drive angry, that anger not diminished by sitting in traffic as bikes go whizzing through on the red tarmac. They're not going to be any less angry if we shrink in to the gutter - witness the intimidation of women cyclists who tend to ride more slowly and further to the left. They've got to be shown the error of their ways. BentMikey is part of that showing. In time the concensus will change, and change for the better, and it's noticeable that whatever the inner turmoil of F1_fan's mates in their hot hatches, the generality of car drivers behave themselves in London, however unskilled or ignorant they might be.
As for my age, young F1, I'll let the eighty or so Cycle Chatters who have come on my rides judge whether I look it or not. A bit of research doesn't hurt.
There was a time when cyclists thought that being invisible was their best defence. We now know that you get more respect the more visible you are, and that shrinking violets are treated with less respect than those of us who take the time to bring the shortcomings of a minority of drivers to their attention. A bit of an upbraiding (tailored to the type of driver) at the next traffic lights, or a referral to the driver's employer does the world of good. It exposes the shortfall in their appreciation of what, in these parts at least, is the new reality - to quote a phrase 'we're here'.
The comparison between cyclists and gays (all references to lycra aside) is a fruitful one. Homosexual men spent decades in a kind of collective closet and it did them no good whatsoever. Twenty or thirty years ago many of them decided to make the point that they were 'here'. and the climate of opinion changed as a result.
Cyclists face a hostile press, and a proportion of drivers who drive angry, that anger not diminished by sitting in traffic as bikes go whizzing through on the red tarmac. They're not going to be any less angry if we shrink in to the gutter - witness the intimidation of women cyclists who tend to ride more slowly and further to the left. They've got to be shown the error of their ways. BentMikey is part of that showing. In time the concensus will change, and change for the better, and it's noticeable that whatever the inner turmoil of F1_fan's mates in their hot hatches, the generality of car drivers behave themselves in London, however unskilled or ignorant they might be.
As for my age, young F1, I'll let the eighty or so Cycle Chatters who have come on my rides judge whether I look it or not. A bit of research doesn't hurt.
BentMikey
Rider of Seolferwulf
- Location
- South London
Dellzeqq is right, it's about bringing consequences to bad drivers. An excellent post, btw, very eloquent. It's about the power of one person to make a change. My motivation isn't to benefit myself, it's to benefit the other road users and particularly cyclists that a particular driver will come across in the future.
There are tens if not hundreds of cyclists in London and the rest of the UK with video cameras now. And from what I see on youtube, the same goes for motorcyclists and car drivers too. Before now, many instances of bad driving were never exposed to the light of day, and with cheap camera technology, now they are.
I'm now seeing the direct results of my own actions, and that they do also benefit me directly. When I first moved out here, I saw hardly any other cyclists, and had many many bad overtakes. A little toot on the AirZound and a pushing out motion after a too-close overtake has educated many of the regular drivers on my route, and I get only a fraction of those now. Best of all, all the other drivers on the road around us also learn from the reprobate driver's mistake as a result of my feedback. I should point out that I give far more thank you waves and salutes to the many excellent drivers out there.
There are tens if not hundreds of cyclists in London and the rest of the UK with video cameras now. And from what I see on youtube, the same goes for motorcyclists and car drivers too. Before now, many instances of bad driving were never exposed to the light of day, and with cheap camera technology, now they are.
I'm now seeing the direct results of my own actions, and that they do also benefit me directly. When I first moved out here, I saw hardly any other cyclists, and had many many bad overtakes. A little toot on the AirZound and a pushing out motion after a too-close overtake has educated many of the regular drivers on my route, and I get only a fraction of those now. Best of all, all the other drivers on the road around us also learn from the reprobate driver's mistake as a result of my feedback. I should point out that I give far more thank you waves and salutes to the many excellent drivers out there.
BentMikey
Rider of Seolferwulf
- Location
- South London
p.s. I quoted you recently on cycling in London: "We've already won, we just don't know it yet". At least I think it was you that said this.
I love cycling in London, and I think that the critical mass that changes behaviour has already occurred. Despite the relatively few bad incidents I've videoed, I think we live in cycling utopia.
I love cycling in London, and I think that the critical mass that changes behaviour has already occurred. Despite the relatively few bad incidents I've videoed, I think we live in cycling utopia.
Welcome back BM! Good to have you back. 
I too film my rides just like BM. I too have the same reasons for doing it (more information can be found in my blog if you look at my signature below).
Don't get me wrong BM and I don't always agree on everything, i.e the utility of hi-viz, the use of air-zounds (although I can understand why some want them) etc. However, more often than not we agree and we certainly agree on the general idea that there should be mutal respect on the roads i.e. it has to work both ways
I too film my rides just like BM. I too have the same reasons for doing it (more information can be found in my blog if you look at my signature below).
Don't get me wrong BM and I don't always agree on everything, i.e the utility of hi-viz, the use of air-zounds (although I can understand why some want them) etc. However, more often than not we agree and we certainly agree on the general idea that there should be mutal respect on the roads i.e. it has to work both ways
I'm a cyclist, who'd just like to distance himself from the embarrasing rhetoric of BM and Dellzeqq, which kinda makes me laugh out loud. Cycling doesn't begin and end in London by the way.
Strip away the rhetoric though and and the aims remain the same. Cycling safely on the road with due respect given both ways.
Strip away the rhetoric though and and the aims remain the same. Cycling safely on the road with due respect given both ways.
+welcome BM.
I don't think f1 and d'pov will have an appreciation of the amount of debate (genuine debate, not point-scoring twatery) that's taken place on this forum about the uses and abuses of helmet-cams.
I use my cam as an insurance policy. Unlike maggers, I've not the drive to start a campaign. Unlike BM, I don't believe that posting bad driving on the interbob furthers the cause of cycling in the UK. This isn't because I have any moral queasiness about showing people at their very worst, rather I think it focuses a disproportionate amount of attention on the negatives. I could make a montage of the hundreds of people that give me enough room every day, but its not good television. You don't get a long take on "Police, Camera, Action" of plod chatting about the football while worrying a couple of cheese burgers. Also, youtube may be democratic, but its also filled with crazies. Life is too short to deal with "U R A SICELLING C***. GET OF OUR ROADZ" landing in your inbox every other day.
"You f****** hypocrit" some may say. And they'd be right. I do have a youtube account, and on it you'll find some more or less unpleasant moments. But if you check the dates, you'll find that these were posted in the first flush of excitement at owning a cam. I don't much bother these days.
Now I keep the account for two reasons - the first is that I still use it if I've had a run-in with a commerical vehicle. I post the vid, ring the company, get them to look at the vid and, if I'm happy with the response, I remove the vid. I've done this twice in two years, and twice the companies involved responded positively. I'm only looking for the small victories.
The second will be familiar to longer serving forumites (apologies for repetition - this is for the benefit of f1 and d'pov), but its an object lesson in why cyclists cam up, and why we are so concerned about the gap between our legal rights and the respect those rights are afforded.
Here it is. I walked away from this with relatively minor injuries (cuts, bruises, longer term damage to my shoulder, bike written off), probably thanks to my genetically big bones. This is great TV and I had my fifteen minutes, but the crash is the least interesting thing about it.
There were two witnesses who called the police and an ambulance immediately. The police turned up first, breathalysed the admitted shocked and contrite driver, checked his licence and let him go. Can you spot what's missing? He wasn't cautioned. What would he be cautioned for? Its a fender bender, right? The attending copper what nice enough, but as I wasn't dead or anything, what was the problem?
Now to the ambo driver. He was annoyed with me. What did I expect if I cycled, I was bound to get hit sometime. I wasn't wearing a helmet, so I deserved what I got. Funnily, what I didn't have was any head injuries. Despite sky-high blood pressure from shock, he effectively refused to take me to the hospital. Copper disappears to attend to some otherwise careful and law-abiding motorist who's just caused a multi-vehicle on the M3 and the ambo driver dumps me out on the street. I'm left to phone a colleague from work to pick me up and cart me home.
I could also talk about how his insurance company tried to accuse me of irresponsible cycling so that, without the footage and a solicitor handy in the black art of cycle claims, I'd still be fighting the claim now.
The police decided not to prosecute the driver for careless driving. These things happen. You can't blame the motorist.
I don't think f1 and d'pov will have an appreciation of the amount of debate (genuine debate, not point-scoring twatery) that's taken place on this forum about the uses and abuses of helmet-cams.
I use my cam as an insurance policy. Unlike maggers, I've not the drive to start a campaign. Unlike BM, I don't believe that posting bad driving on the interbob furthers the cause of cycling in the UK. This isn't because I have any moral queasiness about showing people at their very worst, rather I think it focuses a disproportionate amount of attention on the negatives. I could make a montage of the hundreds of people that give me enough room every day, but its not good television. You don't get a long take on "Police, Camera, Action" of plod chatting about the football while worrying a couple of cheese burgers. Also, youtube may be democratic, but its also filled with crazies. Life is too short to deal with "U R A SICELLING C***. GET OF OUR ROADZ" landing in your inbox every other day.
"You f****** hypocrit" some may say. And they'd be right. I do have a youtube account, and on it you'll find some more or less unpleasant moments. But if you check the dates, you'll find that these were posted in the first flush of excitement at owning a cam. I don't much bother these days.
Now I keep the account for two reasons - the first is that I still use it if I've had a run-in with a commerical vehicle. I post the vid, ring the company, get them to look at the vid and, if I'm happy with the response, I remove the vid. I've done this twice in two years, and twice the companies involved responded positively. I'm only looking for the small victories.
The second will be familiar to longer serving forumites (apologies for repetition - this is for the benefit of f1 and d'pov), but its an object lesson in why cyclists cam up, and why we are so concerned about the gap between our legal rights and the respect those rights are afforded.
Here it is. I walked away from this with relatively minor injuries (cuts, bruises, longer term damage to my shoulder, bike written off), probably thanks to my genetically big bones. This is great TV and I had my fifteen minutes, but the crash is the least interesting thing about it.
There were two witnesses who called the police and an ambulance immediately. The police turned up first, breathalysed the admitted shocked and contrite driver, checked his licence and let him go. Can you spot what's missing? He wasn't cautioned. What would he be cautioned for? Its a fender bender, right? The attending copper what nice enough, but as I wasn't dead or anything, what was the problem?
Now to the ambo driver. He was annoyed with me. What did I expect if I cycled, I was bound to get hit sometime. I wasn't wearing a helmet, so I deserved what I got. Funnily, what I didn't have was any head injuries. Despite sky-high blood pressure from shock, he effectively refused to take me to the hospital. Copper disappears to attend to some otherwise careful and law-abiding motorist who's just caused a multi-vehicle on the M3 and the ambo driver dumps me out on the street. I'm left to phone a colleague from work to pick me up and cart me home.
I could also talk about how his insurance company tried to accuse me of irresponsible cycling so that, without the footage and a solicitor handy in the black art of cycle claims, I'd still be fighting the claim now.
The police decided not to prosecute the driver for careless driving. These things happen. You can't blame the motorist.
Crackle said:
Thank God for that, I was really beginning to think you were all that self righteous.
OK a few observations. I keep reading from some of you in here about how car drivers have pent up frustrations and anger etc. etc. Well I don't. I love driving, especially a performance car. Driving is a privilege and not a right and it should be treated as such at all times. The freedom it gives (despite the government's best efforts in the opposite direction) is something our ancestors could only dream about and for me there is nothing like a spirited drive across a beautiful landscape.
Next up is that it is obvious to me that equal consideration should be given to all road users no matter what type of vehicle they use and no one has any more rights to use the roads than anyone else. I think we have all seen situations where some car drivers don't seem to believe that, but it cuts both ways and I think certain posters could do to remember that.
IMO the whole video camera thing is fine until we see things like some of the antics of Mikey here, the telling the 'offenders' they will be on You Tube or the very obvious filming of plates and drivers etc. As I said there are overtones of playing the policeman and in some ways looking for trouble. I stick by my statement that a less antagonsitic approach would in many cases yield better results.
@dellzeqq - as I said just saying it as I see it. I have no idea what you mean by 'exacting a degree of punishment' or 'those people can thank their lucky stars they met Mikey and not me' but I can tell you it comes across as all a bit pathetic. If you really do go around taking the law into your own hands then that is up to you, but do we not have a police force and a judicial system for that sort of thing. I suppose I am asking what gives you the right to play policeman?
Finally I will tell you the one and only thing that irks me slightly about this whole video camera thing. As we have seen Mikey is quite happy to film the licence plates of the vehicles he sees commiting an 'offence' and he can of course then pass them on to the police and they can be used to ID the 'offender'. Pity then that if I did choose (and don't worry as I really could not ever be that bothered to do it - life is just too short) to video cyclists running red lights and the likes (and yes SOME do - I know you probably can't believe it
) I have no way to ID them. I wonder if there is some reverse psychology working there?Bollo said:
The trouble is that like it or not there is an element of 'this will happen' given the roads today. As my post a few pages back described I gave up cycling when I was knocked off my bike in Manchester in 1990 as I just decided that on 2 wheels you are too vulnerable. Not saying you or anyone else should have to do that, but for me that was the only logical decision. Please note the 'for me' in that statement before I get flamed!!!
magnatom said:
Actually I feel no need to explain it but because you asked I will. Comparing cycling to Gay rights, making statements like 'we've already won', makes it sound like a war of suppresion: I repeat, that's embarrassing. I want exactly the same things but I can't think of it in those terms. You already know, that I'm ambivalent about the use of cameras, I feel their use comes at a cost.
Now in any raising of awareness of a lack of equality, there will always be those who need to lead at the front, appear to have a greater zeal, I think that's necessary and am prepared to tolerate and defend their actions, though I sometimes find them uncomfortable.
Ultimately we all want the same thing and often that's all we have in common, our idealogy may well differ.
PBancroft
Senior Member
- Location
- Winchester
f1_fan said:
That's the thing - I don't like it, and I don't think anyone should. Why should it be acceptable that anyone, through no fault of their own, is hurt on the roads and the person who causes the accident walks away without a caution.
And there's no real difference between Bollo's example, and any other accident where someone is killed or hurt on the road by someone else's mistake. Thousands of people are killed and injured every year, and its not just cyclists. There is a culture of acceptance which you have demonstrated that a certain amount of death is to be expected.
It shouldn't be.
thomas
the tank engine
- Location
- Woking/Norwich
f1_fan said:Pity then that if I did choose (and don't worry as I really could not ever be that bothered to do it - life is just too short) to video cyclists running red lights and the likes (and yes SOME do - I know you probably can't believe it
At times the Police in London have coppers on push bikes near RLJing hot spots and they stop people and give them a £30 fine or something.
Even if cyclists were licenced it wouldn't stop red light jumping....just like cars with number plates doesn't stop bad driving.
As for identifying them, if you had a camera you could record the model of their bike and what they look like. A numberplate doesn't mean you know who was driving, but a picture of what they look like behind the wheel would...so just go video the cyclists.
I was in London on Friday with someone and we were at times a little naughty (when in Rome
). We didn't do it at cross roads, but I'll admit we went through the odd empty ped crossing (it was late at night and pissing it down). I thought it was quite good, that people would actually just make a comment about the lights being red. They wouldn't work themselves up and try and drive us of the road, just make a comment like "why don't you wait"...etc.I could give reasons to try and justify it, but ultimately that doesn't make it right. I will admit, it does annoy me when I see people RLJ on my commute. There are like 3 traffic lights in 13.5 miles so it makes no difference to time.
