Armstrong charged and banned

[Alun]

I wasn't looking at USADA here as they won't be stripping any TdF titles off anyone, nor will they be sending anyone to jail. I think that is a valid consideration who's name might go on the 7 TdF titles currently standing with LA, given that Berties was given to Schleck and Landis' win subsequently awarded to Pereiro.
"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone"

 

[Alun]

No objection to the big picture. I like the big picture. What I don't like is the use of spurious arguments to attempt to justify not punishing a doper.

Armstrong should be sanctioned (if found guilty), but I don't see the point of removing one dopers name from a title and inserting another dopers name.

 

[yello]

I think that is a valid consideration who's name goes on the 7 TdF titles currently standing with LA, given that Berties was given to Schleck and Landis' win subsequently awarded to Pereiro.

As long as you appreciate that it is a separate issue then that's enough for me.

 

[Alun]

As long as you appreciate that it is a separate issue then that's enough for me.

I think it's tied in fairly closely TBH, there aren't many sanctions available (if he is found guilty). Another would be a ban, but like Ullrich he has already retired. I don't know what financial penalties may await him, have Bertie, Landis or Ullrich had to pay any sponsors back, not that I've heard!

 

[yello]

I can't see how you think it fairly closely tied. You've said you know it won't be USADA that'd strip the titles, so how can it be a consideration for them? Are you suggesting the Armstrong case be dropped because of what might be the consequences of finding him guilty?

Believe me, if USADA do ban Armstrong for life, the stripping of his TdF titles would be a minor worry for him so please don't let it worry you! The insurance company SCA, for instance, will be into him for millions of dollars.

 

[Alun]

It isn't a consideration for USADA why should it be? I don't think any doping case should be dropped because of the consequence of a guilty verdict, nor do I believe that I have ever suggested that.
I do think that those responsible for the titles ASO/UCI or whoever, might give the matter some consideration, I wouldn't say it worries me, though !

 

[yello]

I do think that those responsible for the titles ASO/UCI or whoever, might give the matter some consideration

I'm sure they are doing exactly that as it won't be a decision taken lightly.

More importantly (for me anyway) is that it seems to me that you do see it as a separate issue. I'm happy with that.

 

[PaulB]

Long, detailed and very involved, this is extremely illuminating. http://www.sportsscientists.com/2011/03/biological-passport-effective-fight-or.html And so's this http://news.discovery.com/adventure/tour-de-france-drugs-120629.html

 

[Alun]

I'm surprised that you don't think LA's titles and the verdict are closely linked.
If the verdict is not guilty he will retain them, if found guilty then the Landis/Contador precedent suggests that they will be taken off him and maybe given to another doper. I'd be miffed if I was Contador and LA was found guilty but didn't lose his titles.
One will follow the other and be dependant upon it!

 

[yello]

Fiendishly complex stuff! Frankly, the chemistry of the biological passport is way beyond my comprehension but I understand the gist of it. An interesting point about behavioural changes though. I've read a related comment about the passport actually helping athletes to dope smarter. They don't stop doping just change how and when they dope. I'm sure there's an element of truth in that but another way of looking at it is to say it's having an effect. I'd conservatively say it's a positive one, if the times up Alpe d'Huez are anything to go by!

 

[yello]

One will follow the other and be dependant upon it!

I think we're at cross purposes. You're talking about consequence, I'm addressing procedure or a necessity, if I can put it like that .

Of course, Armstrong being banned could well lead to him being stripped of the TdF titles. I personally care not whether it would or wouldn't, but it could well happen. That one decision will kick off another is not my point. ASO/UCI will decide about the titles for themselves, USADA banning Armstrong would trigger that decision but not require it. And whether titles would or wouldn't be stripped is certainly not a consideration for USADA. There is no link in that respect.

if found guilty then the Landis/Contador precedent suggests that they will be taken off him

Exactly - "suggests" and not 'requires'. There is no obligation for it to happen even though it could well happen.

 

[albion]

Well the BEEBs run a story on the rather uneasy relationship between Armstrong and tour fans.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/18666839
Old news too seemingly with L'Equipe moving onto rumours more current.

 

[yello]

It's a nice piece that one. Even tone, low level, nothing too outrageous. I could get a bit picky over some of the word choice ('cause that's what I do!) but, yes, I like it on balance.

The French commentator on the tour coverage appears very matter of fact about the goings on. He refers to it factually, without any kind of side or tone that I can detect... not that my French is good enough to pick up nuance. I'm sure other pundits are more opinionated though. After all, it is a relevant topic for discussion.

Something the article does pick up on is the history aspect. I think that's worth expanding on. Ime, France loves it's history. There seems to be a great respect for tradition and heritage. The UK has it but to nowhere near the same degree. It seems ingrained in so any French people. A national trait even. I could genuinely see how someone that upsets tradition could get themselves disliked. That said, in my time here, I have never heard a word said against Armstrong by my clubmates. It's just not a subject whereas the tour itself can be. I think that's the lesson I've learnt. The tour is the important thing, nobody is bigger than that. The tour has the tradition (and it has its personalities too for sure, as a part of it) and the tradition rolls on.

 

[MichaelM]

Hincapie, Leipheimer, Vande Velde and Vaughters to give evidence according to Cyclng News.

 

[albion]

"Four former teammates of Lance Armstrong will receive six month bans after they confessed to doping and testified against the seven-time Tour de France winner, according to De Telegraaf."

Quite a short story.