21/10/13 - female cyclist down in Camden - Tipper lorry

[buggi]

Hang about there, your plan was to stand by the side of the road and tell cyclists stuff.

yes ... to EDUCATE them. Lorries have blind spots in which the driver CAN'T see... How is he to know if a cyclist rides up the inside bcoz the cyclist did not understand the danger? Its all very well to say if a lorry has a blind spot clearly its not road worthy and shouldn't be allowed on the road, or even that the lorry driver should be trained to look, but this is the real world, those lorries ARE on the road and so are those kinds of drivers, so if some cyclists still need educating about this, then yes, educate them. And don't tell me they don't bcoz I've met a few recently. Not everyone comes on forums or knows other people that cycle who tell them, some are novices and some don't drive so don't have that experience. All these cyclists fall through the net and don't understand the danger and some drivers are peanuts. Its a bad combination. I'm a cycle safety rep at work and we work at it from both angles. We educate the cyclists AND we educate the lorry drivers. hopefully the combination of training both will go some way to stop this happening.
its the difference between responsibility and avoidability... Yes its the drivers responsibility to look but that doesn't help you if you have life changing injuries. What does help you is knowing how you can avoid it.

 

[dellzeqq]

so - someone cycles on the right hand side of a truck and gets killed, and you're going to stand by the side of a road in a city you don't know and tell people not to cycle up the left hand side of trucks? Good luck with that.

I, on the other hand, have no intention of lecturing people on the liabilities that attend sub-letting flats.

 

[deptfordmarmoset]

A small point about design. Buses were designed with pedestrians in view - literally and figuratively - and largely for use in urban areas (because that's where most of the pedestrians are). Construction vehicles are designed primarily to carry as much as they can for the smallest amount of money, and in practice this appears to extend to the cheapest drivers. They were never designed with the urban environment in mind. For all its faults (see DZ's post hovering around this morning) LCC did spend some time looking at truck design. I haven't managed to find the article on the LCC website* but this (http://www.theguardian.com/environment/bike-blog/2013/mar/20/cycle-safe-lorries) gives one possible direction to go in.

And while talking about design, I don't think anyone's mentioned the pavement build out as a possible factor in the incident. You narrow the road entrance and an oversized vehicle has to move out further to get in, and the driver has to focus much more on getting into a narrower gap. Maybe it was designed to accommodate large numbers of pedestrians but it wasn't designed like that with due consideration to the big vehicles using it.

*Found it - http://lcc.org.uk/articles/lcc-chal...er-urban-lorry-to-reduce-lorry-cyclist-deaths

 

[mark st1]

Some construction firms have their own training schemes - the shining example being Cemex.

Cemex are good i deliver to alot of there concrete sites in and around TV and they do seem to take H&S and stuff more seriously than most. It may be just coincidence and i have no facts at all other than personal experience in that Cemex Lafarge Tarmac employ owner drivers as appose to just staff to drive. Ive worked with both and owner drivers come across like they care alot more than just a driver maybe its a financial thing i dont know.

 

[mark st1]

[QUOTE 2731068, member: 30090"]
Compare the amount of windows on a bus to a truck, and the height of the cab...lot easier to see.[/quote]

I disagree yes a bus has more windows but the mirrors are the same which is what is used to see whats coming up beside you behind you. A bus may have a bigger front window but all that offers is a greater front view nothing else. Every bus ive been on the driver is behind a perspex window with a solid back so i wouldn't say they have any use for the windows provided for the rest of us to look at the grumpy passengers.

 

[buggi]

so - someone cycles on the right hand side of a truck and gets killed, and you're going to stand by the side of a road in a city you don't know and tell people not to cycle up the left hand side of trucks? Good luck with that.

I, on the other hand, have no intention of lecturing people on the liabilities that attend sub-letting flats.

i fail to understand what my flat has got to do with this and no i wouldn't tell them not to cycle up the left hand side of lorries, i would educate them about the blind spots on both sides and let them decide for themself. Its a little bit like process safety... You have lorry equipment (ie sensors), road design, driver education, cyclist education, perhaps lights on bikes, maybe some hi viz or other colour that stands out... Basically come at it from all angles and all these "processes" overlap so that if one missing, another takes over. This is how we stop major accidents at work and the same applies. education is just one of those processes. Eg if the process fails because the drivers forgets to check, the cyclist has maybe decided NOT to cycle up the left ... or the right ... and the incident doesn't occur. Job done.

 

[buggi]

just out of interest how many of you cycle up the side of lorries and if you don't.... why not? Is it bcoz you perhaps have been educated about the dangers? I'm not saying things shouldn't be done to improve it from the driver point of view, there is loads that can be done, training, road design, lorry equipment, etc but you can avoid putting yourself in that position also until those things are in place

 

[buggi]

Oh dear

o here we go, i dare mention hi viz, such a crime! sometimes i wear it, sometimes i don't but if it means some fukwit driver might see me when he wouldn't normally have, coz he's not looking, then that's all good for me init. doesn't mean I'm to blame if I'm not but for all I know, my bright pink top might of saved me at some point or another.

 

[buggi]

You don't seem to be getting this, if we all do the job for them perfectly and just concede the road in every conflict situation, none of those things will ever be put in place because the need will have evaporated.

so are you gonna volunteer to continue riding up the side of a lorry then, just to make the point? cheers for that, well done. take one for the team!

 

[buggi]

If you have read any of the equivalent threads on this subject before you would know that I do. I know what I am doing though, the rhythms of the lights etc, so I know when to and when not to. What I don't need is any patronising so called educating thanks very much.

well whoopee for you... some people don't ! !

 

[buggi]

Yes because it is more of the same. Your thinking is all about taking responsibility for danger off the shoulders of those that pose the danger and putting it on the potential victims.

No its about preserving my own life and getting home in one piece. i don't let traffic intimidate me off the road, as you would know if you knew me, but i don't put myself in this position either, just to make a point.

 

[anothersam]

In stationary traffic waiting for traffic lights to change I have deliberately sat on the near side just behind lorries and buses trying to block cyclists from riding up the near side adjacent to the pavement or railings and from time to time I have had cretins barge past me and do just that.

On the one hand I think, well, clearly cyclists can get into trouble scooting up alongside large vehicles. It's hard to fault you if you may be saving their life. On the other hand, if you were blocking me I'd just go around you if I could. I'd try not to do it in an impolitely barge-y kind of way though!

i feel like dragging my ass to London and standing on the streets handing out some hard hitting leaflets to everyone who cycles past. I drill it into the cyclists at work not to do this, i bring it up in every safety meeting. Its all about education...

i would educate them about the blind spots on both sides and let them decide for themself.

Leaflets are OK. I might even take one from you, to scribble my own suggestions about what to look out for:
Are there railings or other impediments to pedestrianising myself if it becomes necessary? How close to the kerb is the vehicle? Can it turn left? Can it turn at all? What is the situation at the front? At what stage is the traffic light? When it turns green can they move, and if so, how fast are they likely to? Are there other cyclists about and what are they up to? Can I safely get past this guy trying to block me or will he knock me over with his concerned glare? Etc. All done with a Terminator-type information overlay complete with GPS, vectors, probabilities and windspeed, of course.

If you have a hard and fast rule to NEVER NEVER NEVER (as the CC guide to commuting puts it) go up the near side of large vehicles, I certainly respect that, but for my own part, constantly figuring all this stuff out is part of what makes city cycling (much as I hate to use this word given the sad context) fun.

 

[buggi]

It is not just to make a point, it is using the roads to go about my day.

Well carry on as you are if you feel you are experienced enough to make up for other people's mistakes. I hope sincerely you are not up the side of the next lorry driver that does and you have some way to exit if he doesn't see you. In the meantime, I'll stay behind any lorry that is at the junction before me and let him take his turn. I'd rather wait a few seconds and be able to go about my day, than risk a wheelchair for the rest of my life.

 

[glasgowcyclist]

If I saw a cyclist go up the inside of an hgv I'd judge him to be a muppet. If the manoeuvre was done while the hgv was about to turn left, I'd feel it my duty to alert said muppet to the likelihood of his imminent demise.

Is that patronising? Lecturing? Who cares?

The object is to educate some cyclists who appear to be unaware of the risks they're taking, maybe even save a life. There's a cracking video by bentmikey where he shouts at one such muppet.


Buggi handing out an information leaflet isn't any different.

GC

 

[buggi]

You don't seem to be getting this, if we all do the job for them perfectly and just concede the road in every conflict situation, none of those things will ever be put in place because the need will have evaporated.

.. And of course your not doing it to make a point either?

i don't continue to miss the point, I'm fully aware if whose responsibility it is but they are not taking responsibility are they? So go ahead, take one for the team so we have some more ammunition to fight our cause. Also i know this... If or when that woman wakes up to her life changing injuries, its not going to make any difference to her recovery that its the lorry drivers fault... She'll get a nice big payout yea, and he might get sacked and they might put sensors on their lorries, which is all good for us... But when she's been spoon fed she's still gonna wish deep down she hadn't cycled up the side of him. And if she did it knowing the risks well then that's that, but it would be a shame if no one had ever told her that could happen so she could make her own informed decision to risk it or not.