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I was a low C for a while and always in the bottom half of any races, so didn't do much and went down to D which was a better experience, then RS came along and my score was/is under 250 this puts me at the front in races and is good for the ego but I have gone back to C in the old categories, I can't muster any enthusiasm to enter a C race, but I suppose I should just to see how I compare.
alex_cycles
Veteran
- Location
- Oxfordshire
Between November 2023 and May 2024 I did about 2-3 races per week. Not one of them was a CE race though. There are races out there using other systems which can be a lot more fun if you find yourself near the bottom of a CE category. Most of mine were vELO races, but there are some other non-CE races too.
steverob
Guru
- Location
- Buckinghamshire
Sorry, was called in to the office with only 24 hours notice, so couldn't make it back home in time to race.
I was very thankful of that as he joined me and dragged me around the London Crit course
I thought the Cyclopathon race was good. Good turnout and kudos to @alex_cycles for organising the series.
I've just looked through the finishing times and spreads across the 5 pens and it looks to me as if ZRS is broadly getting it right.
@Whorty said I was 'a decent B' under the CE system. That's very kind but not entirely accurate. I'm actually a lightweight, tall, thin guy who gets bumped up to B cat through my zFTP w/kg. My zMAP is C cat standard.
So, I can ride with B cats pretty well until I hit a punchy climb, or an FTS/FAL segment in ZRL, where I get spat out the back. I can often get back on to the group, but that means a big effort that almost guarantees that one or two climbs/FAL/FTS later, I'm right out the back and that's that.
That's been the story of my ZRL racing for the last 2 years, apart from a brief demotion to C, which lasted 2 rounds, before I was back in B, even though I finished about 15 in a field of around 70!
ZRS races have seen me contesting races again. I've still got dropped on some final climbs as my short term power isn't quite good enough.
Last night's Cyclopathon saw me in the lead group going down the Mall. I'd got slightly gapped on the 3rd climb up Whitehall, but closed the gap around the Strand and was well placed. A mixture of tiredness and a sprint that would embarrass an injured snail saw me finish 19th, but only 4 seconds back from the winner.
So, as I said above, this morning I checked out timings and spreads across all pens and that look pretty sound to me. ZRS has certaintly brought back the fun to me in racing, after 2 years of giving it everything but getting my arse kicked every time.
As far as I can see the arguments are coming from 2 areas. One is the initial seed scoring, where I concede that a longer period of results and possibly the use of a wider set of power points may improve the initial seed. But, as the Racing Score element comes more into play, I don't really see the longer term relevance of this. There are some valid points about returning riders who take the summer off Zwift, and come back with a lower Cat, but extending the results period beyond 90 days would likely help there.
The other arguments see to come from the 'sandbagerati' (I just made that up) who've profited under CE. They have enough power to sit in and not break Cat boundaries, and are heavy enough not to run into my weight issues, and then unleash a huge sprint at the end to win or podium. This system 'rewards' them by pushing them up to where the 'racecraft' that many of them claim, means they probably should be.
One last interesting point. My ZRS has been fairly steady. I'm currently at 401. I started at around 400, went up to around 435 after intentionally smashing out a 30s PB after an easy Pace Partner ride, just to confirm this would push up my Seed Score and ZRS - it did. Then, like a lot of people I found myself around 30 points lower at 399, after Zwift did a big reset about a week ago. I'm now back up at 401.
The interesting point is that while my ZRS has stayed constant to slightly up, my zwiftracing.app has been sinking from borderline Platinum at just under 1150 to Gold, currently at 1093.
I'm actually riding well at the moment. Power figures are up across the board, although 15 and 30s are still crap. The only difference I can think that may explain this, is that when I ride ZRS test races, I'm coming up against stronger C cat riders, who I wouldn't have been racing against as a B cat in CE races. My zwiftracing.app score had alternated between Platinum and Gold before ZRS. I'm now losing to enough C cat racers in ZRS, that my zwiftracing.app score has drifted down into Gold.
Last night, both scores went up a couple of points as I finished above prediction, so perhaps I've now found the right level.
I've just looked through the finishing times and spreads across the 5 pens and it looks to me as if ZRS is broadly getting it right.
@Whorty said I was 'a decent B' under the CE system. That's very kind but not entirely accurate. I'm actually a lightweight, tall, thin guy who gets bumped up to B cat through my zFTP w/kg. My zMAP is C cat standard.
So, I can ride with B cats pretty well until I hit a punchy climb, or an FTS/FAL segment in ZRL, where I get spat out the back. I can often get back on to the group, but that means a big effort that almost guarantees that one or two climbs/FAL/FTS later, I'm right out the back and that's that.
That's been the story of my ZRL racing for the last 2 years, apart from a brief demotion to C, which lasted 2 rounds, before I was back in B, even though I finished about 15 in a field of around 70!
ZRS races have seen me contesting races again. I've still got dropped on some final climbs as my short term power isn't quite good enough.
Last night's Cyclopathon saw me in the lead group going down the Mall. I'd got slightly gapped on the 3rd climb up Whitehall, but closed the gap around the Strand and was well placed. A mixture of tiredness and a sprint that would embarrass an injured snail saw me finish 19th, but only 4 seconds back from the winner.
So, as I said above, this morning I checked out timings and spreads across all pens and that look pretty sound to me. ZRS has certaintly brought back the fun to me in racing, after 2 years of giving it everything but getting my arse kicked every time.
As far as I can see the arguments are coming from 2 areas. One is the initial seed scoring, where I concede that a longer period of results and possibly the use of a wider set of power points may improve the initial seed. But, as the Racing Score element comes more into play, I don't really see the longer term relevance of this. There are some valid points about returning riders who take the summer off Zwift, and come back with a lower Cat, but extending the results period beyond 90 days would likely help there.
The other arguments see to come from the 'sandbagerati' (I just made that up) who've profited under CE. They have enough power to sit in and not break Cat boundaries, and are heavy enough not to run into my weight issues, and then unleash a huge sprint at the end to win or podium. This system 'rewards' them by pushing them up to where the 'racecraft' that many of them claim, means they probably should be.
One last interesting point. My ZRS has been fairly steady. I'm currently at 401. I started at around 400, went up to around 435 after intentionally smashing out a 30s PB after an easy Pace Partner ride, just to confirm this would push up my Seed Score and ZRS - it did. Then, like a lot of people I found myself around 30 points lower at 399, after Zwift did a big reset about a week ago. I'm now back up at 401.
The interesting point is that while my ZRS has stayed constant to slightly up, my zwiftracing.app has been sinking from borderline Platinum at just under 1150 to Gold, currently at 1093.
I'm actually riding well at the moment. Power figures are up across the board, although 15 and 30s are still crap. The only difference I can think that may explain this, is that when I ride ZRS test races, I'm coming up against stronger C cat riders, who I wouldn't have been racing against as a B cat in CE races. My zwiftracing.app score had alternated between Platinum and Gold before ZRS. I'm now losing to enough C cat racers in ZRS, that my zwiftracing.app score has drifted down into Gold.
Last night, both scores went up a couple of points as I finished above prediction, so perhaps I've now found the right level.
I have all this to look forward to
Outdoor racing finishes on 22nd Sept so I'll be increasingly back on Zwift then. I'm a couple of kg heavier than last season for some reason, which won't help.
alex_cycles
Veteran
- Location
- Oxfordshire
It's a constantly moving feast, I find. I've had races where I've gone up on one system and down on the other. But a lot of that can be explained by ZRS being so new and not many people have done 16 ZRS races like I have. My seed was originally about 540. It's been up in the 580s and down to high 550s but so far not deviated more than that. It felt like I'd been correctly placed from the start.
I regard vELO as the source of truth though, but even there it can happen that if people you're racing don't have recent data there can be issues. If you don't race for 91 days you get a complete reset there.
Sounds like you want the algorithm to personally cherry pick your ride data to ignore your better performances and therefore put you in a lower category so you have more chance of winning
Seriously though, you're probably just about where you should be in terms of ZRS in that you're basically in the 4th out of 5 categories, which as a C/D rider sounds about right. Your problem is probably just that there's probably a few riders currently in that same category who haven't ridden on Zwift much over the summer and as a result are in a lower ZRS category than they're capable of.
Good thing with this system though as it's used more, is they'll do well as they start racing on Zwift again and soon get upgraded.
(Then of course they'll probably start complaining that they're in the wrong category because they're not winning any more and the system is awful....and on it goes!)
Legs
usually riding on Zwift...
- Location
- Staffordshire
Oh my days - first Zwift in a fortnight and I was sweating buckets doing 235W with Jacques for half an hour... 
Sounds like you want the algorithm to personally cherry pick your ride data to ignore your better performances and therefore put you in a lower category so you have more chance of winning
Seriously though, you're probably just about where you should be in terms of ZRS in that you're basically in the 4th out of 5 categories, which as a C/D rider sounds about right. Your problem is probably just that there's probably a few riders currently in that same category who haven't ridden on Zwift much over the summer and as a result are in a lower ZRS category than they're capable of.
Good thing with this system though as it's used more, is they'll do well as they start racing on Zwift again and soon get upgraded.
(Then of course they'll probably start complaining that they're in the wrong category because they're not winning any more and the system is awful....and on it goes!)
My seeding is way off. Based on where I'm coming in races and the ZRS scores of those beating me, it should be 350 at most, but it started well above 400. In an old style C ride today, flat/rolling course, I came 94/151 on the road (74 in ZP).
I get it's my problem and no one else's and no one cares. I'm not complaining, I'm merely joining the conversation and saying for some the seeding is wrong. By some margin. Or would we rather only hear from people who have no feedback?
alex_cycles
Veteran
- Location
- Oxfordshire
I care. I remember you kicking my arse up Leg Snapper and I want that Carl back. But after such a long lay-off I think you've got some building to do. I can remember you preaching "surge and recovery" to me and I would be thinking "no idea how the hell you recover that quickly. It's all very well YOU saying that...
".But now I know. It's conditioning. I got a lot better at sprinting in DRS just by doing more of it. Realised I was OK at FTS segments and ended up getting better and better at it.
Quite likely - even in the right power seed category if your recovery is shot, you won't be doing well until you get some of it back. I may be talking out my backside, but I think there may be something in it. If you've been doing mostly weights for 18 months your body's not used to these efforts any more. But I'm looking forward to racing you up Leg Snapper one day when you've got it back. I have no doubt it WILL come back.
