Zwift Chat

[bridgy]

My seeding is way off. Based on where I'm coming in races and the ZRS scores of those beating me, it should be 350 at most, but it started well above 400. In an old style C ride today, flat/rolling course, I came 94/151 on the road (74 in ZP).

I get it's my problem and no one else's and no one cares. I'm not complaining, I'm merely joining the conversation and saying for some the seeding is wrong. By some margin. Or would we rather only hear from people who have no feedback?

Even if your ZRS of 371 is "way off" and should be 350 as you say, it would actually make no difference at all as that would still put you in ZRS Cat D in virtually every ZRS based race anyway.

You're currently Cat C based on the Zftp system, and you're beating over a third of the field in a Cat C race - based on that, if your ZRS score put you in Cat E - the lowest possible category for ZRS - that wouldn't seem right would it?

I know none of that helps in terms of your experience of the races. But there can't be infinite categories - boundary lines have to be drawn somewhere/somehow and based on something. The brutal reality is that some people are going to find themselves towards the top of a category and others towards the bottom - that's inevitable.

(And I don't know why you're saying no one cares and implying you (or anyone) shouldn't be allowed to give feedback or something - no one's said anything remotely like that, we're just discussing the ZRS system, it's no big deal!)

 

[Whorty]

I care. I remember you kicking my arse up Leg Snapper and I want that Carl back. But after such a long lay-off I think you've got some building to do. I can remember you preaching "surge and recovery" to me and I would be thinking "no idea how the hell you recover that quickly. It's all very well YOU saying that... ".

But now I know. It's conditioning. I got a lot better at sprinting in DRS just by doing more of it. Realised I was OK at FTS segments and ended up getting better and better at it.

Quite likely - even in the right power seed category if your recovery is shot, you won't be doing well until you get some of it back. I may be talking out my backside, but I think there may be something in it. If you've been doing mostly weights for 18 months your body's not used to these efforts any more. But I'm looking forward to racing you up Leg Snapper one day when you've got it back. I have no doubt it WILL come back.

Absolutely spot on - after the first 2 or 3 minutes of effort out the pens to stay in the pack I'm at my limit and barely hanging on. Haven't got the fitness to then recover, even in flat courses. Yesterday I let the leaders go as I knew I'd burn too many matches hanging on, so tried to find a group lower back - even hanging on to the group that was then in 118th position I was struggling until it settled down. I have a lot of work to do haha.

You also need to be in the right pen, the right races, to be pushed and to start to get that conditioning back. At the moment I'm in a pen where the others fly off and all I'm doing is hanging on for 10 mins and getting dropped; what I need is to be in a race where I can stay in a group, any group is fine, until the end so I'm pushed for 30-40 mins rather than just 10 mins.

Yesterday in the old C cat race I found a group of 6, that grew to about 9 or so, and we stayed together most of the race. This meant I could do some surge/recovery up the little climbs. I was on my @rse, came 94th on the road, but it was good riding in a group.

I do need to ride a little more if I can find the time and energy, but weights has had my focus for 18 months or so now and this has taken away from my cycling (and kept me at 83kg when I ride much better at 75kg). Over the winter I probably need to try to get a better balance between cycling and weights and shed at least 3-5kg.

Interesting thing about the ride yesterday - my old ZP ranking score improved a little, but the new ZRS dropped by another 14 (this seems to be the maximum adjustment down, at least what I've seen so far) - which, as a logical numbers guy, just confirms to me that the new ZRS D pen is for upper C/lower B riders and I'm currently a mid/lower C so the new D pen is incorrect for me (currently). My ZRS is currently 371 - a few more races and I think it will start to stabilise around 330-350 until I get some fitness back and can hold on longer in rides.

 

[CXRAndy]

I'm hoping to get on this afternoon doing the Dogma ride

 

[Whorty]

Even if your ZRS of 371 is "way off" and should be 350 as you say, it would actually make no difference at all as that would still put you in ZRS Cat D in virtually every ZRS based race anyway.

You're currently Cat C based on the Zftp system, and you're beating over a third of the field in a Cat C race - based on that, if your ZRS score put you in Cat E - the lowest possible category for ZRS - that wouldn't seem right would it?

I know none of that helps in terms of your experience of the races. But there can't be infinite categories - boundary lines have to be drawn somewhere/somehow and based on something. The brutal reality is that some people are going to find themselves towards the top of a category and others towards the bottom - that's inevitable.

(And I don't know why you're saying no one cares and implying you (or anyone) shouldn't be allowed to give feedback or something - no one's said anything remotely like that, we're just discussing the ZRS system, it's no big deal!)

When people in the new E pen, with lower ZRS seedings and scores are easily beating me today, I'd say that I'm in the wrong pen. You may not agree, that's your prerogative, but as I'm the one riding and know how it feels and how my fitness is then I'm comfortable with my own analysis.

Seeing the riders in the new D pen, they are upper C/lower B riders - that very contentious area previously that I sat in. On flatter courses, if you're a heavier rider, it was hard to get into old B numbers so we all rode in old C. yet if we did ride in B races, on flat courses, we could probably hold on to the end of a race (although at our limits and so no sprint left in the legs). This is what I've seen in the new D pen, and for those lower B's who were always at the back, they are now having great races with upper Cs and it's a great experience for them.

18 months ago this would have been perfect for me.

As a lower C now, the new E pen is where others of my fitness are. I do feel sorry though for D riders as they are now racing against C riders who previously they wouldn't have encountered - but now in that pen those big heavy Ds who won every week are now having to face low C riders and making the races more competitive (D races were often not well represented either so having the new E pen wider should mean better racing for most).

It's interesting there are now no female only pens.

I'd like to get back into a form and fitness where I can hold on to a pack again in the new D pen, but until then it's pointless me joining ZRS races as I'll just be dropped early and be solo riding from there on which is not particularly enjoyable. The older C races are better for me for now as I'm more likely to find others of a similar fitness to ride with.

 

[Whorty]

I'm hoping to get on this afternoon doing the Dogma ride

I'm busy from 3 till 4.30 - which time ride you looking at? If the 17-10 I could try to join that again - I need to lose some more ZRS ranking points

 

[Whorty]

You're currently Cat C based on the Zftp system, and you're beating over a third of the field in a Cat C race - based on that, if your ZRS score put you in Cat E - the lowest possible category for ZRS - that wouldn't seem right would it?

I think you're falling into the misconception that the new E pen is the old D cat; this isn't the case. The new E pen is full of lower C riders too, so that D and lower C are now in the same pens. And there is some good logic behind that as D cats were not well represented previously and riders were often quickly promoted to C with a bit of fitness and form. It just means now they stay in the last pen longer and have a more enjoyable ride with lots of others.

As a current lower C rider, that last pen is where my direct competition is and given these are beating me in old style C races I'm pretty sure I won't be winning any races anytime soon.

So yes, it does seem right.

It wouldn't be right if I was still at the fitness I was 18 months ago, but for now, yes, perfectly right.

 

[CXRAndy]

It's the 3.12pm. I can't do much later. Got kids coming around for fish and pips at 5pm

 

[CXRAndy]

I think there a lots new riders with low ranking race scores. Some are high C or low B riders from the old categories. It's going to take time to align the rankings.

I just self filter the B cats, younger, stronger and better riders from my list.

Amazingly, I tend to do rather well after that

 

[Whorty]

It's the 3.12pm. I can't do much later. Got kids coming around for fish and pips at 5pm

Ah, sorry, definitely can't make that.

My ride yesterday had 150 riders so you should find a good fast group. There are a couple of little drags but punchy so should suit your style. If you get the feather, save it for the 8% ramp - set it off as the gradient hits 2% and the feather will last until you crest. The rest if the little rises are all draftable.

 

[alex_cycles]

So the issue about all the C-cat B-cat D-cat talk in relation to ZRS is that the pens can have variable thresholds.

Now it's most likely that the main Zwift events will settle on fixed values - coz that's what they tend to do.
But in the new ZRS system there is no "C-cat". There is a C pen which will have a range of ZRS values.

And various races have wider or narrower ranges of values. For example the evening ZRS races are split into 10 pens designated HIGH and LOW. One C pen might have a range of 450-550, but another race's C pen might have a range of 400-600 or 450-500 depending on how it's been set up. In Cyclopathon from month to month the thresholds will vary so nobody gets stuck at the top or bottom.

Even the Zwift FAQ on ZRS says "there is no correlation between ZRS and Pace Groups".

With regard to ZRS it's much better to think about numbers rather than ABCDE, which are really only the pen names.

 

[Whorty]

So the issue about all the C-cat B-cat D-cat talk in relation to ZRS is that the pens can have variable thresholds.

Now it's most likely that the main Zwift events will settle on fixed values - coz that's what they tend to do.
But in the new ZRS system there is no "C-cat". There is a C pen which will have a range of ZRS values.

And various races have wider or narrower ranges of values. For example the evening ZRS races are split into 10 pens designated HIGH and LOW. One C pen might have a range of 450-550, but another race's C pen might have a range of 400-600 or 450-500 depending on how it's been set up. In Cyclopathon from month to month the thresholds will vary so nobody gets stuck at the top or bottom.

Even the Zwift FAQ on ZRS says "there is no correlation between ZRS and Pace Groups".

With regard to ZRS it's much better to think about numbers rather than ABCDE, which are really only the pen names.

That's a good point, we're just so used to talking 'B' that it's ingrained in our psyche and will take a bit of time to unravel.

Once the ZRS scores normalise for riders from the initial seeding then things will get better, and I'm definitely a big fan of results based ranking scores

My only question really was how the seeding was derived as it hasn't worked correctly for me personally, so I was wondering if anyone knew which metrics were used - ultimately it is what it is and I know it will correct itself the more I race and until then I need to choose my rides so that I at least have someone to ride with rather than being spat out the back and riding solo.

I've always said I race against those I'm in the group with, whether I'm racing for first place or not coming last, it's all the same to me, but for that I need to be in a group and not get dropped by everyone in the first 10 minutes

 

[bridgy]

I think you're falling into the misconception that the new E pen is the old D cat

No, I don't have that misconception thanks!

My only question really was how the seeding was derived as it hasn't worked correctly for me personally, so I was wondering if anyone knew which metrics were used - ultimately it is what it is and I know it will correct itself the more I race and until then I need to choose my rides so that I at least have someone to ride with rather than being spat out the back and riding solo.

I think that was answered (30 second and 10 minute power in the last 90 days).

Whether that algorithm is used, or the old Cat A-D system for initial seeding, I think your ZRS score ending up putting you in the 4th out of 5 categories does sound about right though.

Obviously your race experience doesn't feel like that - it may be because others have been put in too low a category (which shoud quickly be adjusted), plus it could be that you're unfortunately towards the lower end of that category currently (someone has to be!).

Maybe perservere with the ZRS races and either your ZRS score will reduce enough to drop you to Cat E, or those who are too strong for D will start to get filtered out (and those too strong for E move up to where they should also be)

 

[Venod]

As a current lower C rider, that last pen is where my direct competition is and given these are beating me in old style C races I'm pretty sure I won't be winning any races anytime soon.

As a current low C myself I can confirm this is correct, this mornings race 9 out of the top ten were C cats, the other 1 been D cat, the winner pushed his score over 300 so he will move up to the D pen, I am still in the 250s so remain in the E pen

 

[Whorty]

Signed up to the 18:10 Pinarello ride tonight - I'm hoping I'm back in time although it's 50/50

They're using the new ZRS scores with high and low pens - I'm placed in Pen B in the low end, so of 10 pens I'm pen 7. This is for ZRS 350-400

Looking at times so far for peeps in that pen, unless I can hold on to someone's wheel and get dragged around like yesterday, it could end up as an iTT for me. My incentive to finish will be another correction to the ZRS score.

 

[Venod]

Looks as if there are some changes coming to calculating the score.

https://zwiftinsider.com/zrs-update...AkfqItzmorC1_ddDrA_aem_MS4dC0JB_F-dvFPhLwXNWQ