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Peter Salt
Bittersweet
- Location
- Yorkshire, UK
alex_cycles
Veteran
- Location
- Oxfordshire
Yeah this is an independent test platform that some guys have put together hoping that Zwift will do something similar.
But you'll also notice that the likes of Hivey and Paul Smith and all the other megastars of our ZRL are high gold or platinum, which is higher than a lot of Bs (just like their ZP rankings)
It does seem rather good. There's a test event on Sunday actually where it will group people according to their ZR rankings.
I've provisionally entered it. Entries close Saturday pm and then it will automatically assign pens for the race which will be on Sunday pm.
It's 8 laps of Crit City. https://www.zwiftracing.app/zr-events
You can login to the site and claim your profile using your Strava account (I think that might be necessary to enter the race)
Yes saw the video . Ed Laverack on a live stream said he was surprised they got so close when asked about it .
The Italian man (Luca? ) on the zwift academy is the Italian Andrew Feather Strava Kom hunter and featured in a GCN video him v Feather
Peter Salt
Bittersweet
- Location
- Yorkshire, UK
Watched episode one but not the second one, yet. I like the German chick
steverob
Guru
- Location
- Buckinghamshire
I was very interested in the Zwift Rankings idea but I still think they've got a way to go before it's set up right. For one, it's still way too easy to manipulate your ranking downwards by performing badly, so someone desperate enough to stay at a lower rank could quite easily do that by throwing a race straight after winning one.
For example my ranking this season was around 970-980 for ages and rarely went up or down by more than a few points at a time, which was probably right - it meant that I was finishing roughly where I was expected to. Then over one weekend I rode two rounds of Race Makuri on tired legs where I didn't (more like couldn't) give it my full energy, although I still did try and got a passable result in both. But all of a sudden my ranking collapsed with me losing almost 30 and then 20 points back to back - apparently the system always assumes that you race at your absolute best, so if you're off form, tired, or just plain taking it easy, then you'll lose points.
Now I have got about half those points back thanks to my 2nd place on the dirt race where I picked the gravel bike and no-one else did, but I'm still considerably below my original ranking despite not trying to game the system. Imagine what you could do if you were actually attempting to lower your rank?
For example my ranking this season was around 970-980 for ages and rarely went up or down by more than a few points at a time, which was probably right - it meant that I was finishing roughly where I was expected to. Then over one weekend I rode two rounds of Race Makuri on tired legs where I didn't (more like couldn't) give it my full energy, although I still did try and got a passable result in both. But all of a sudden my ranking collapsed with me losing almost 30 and then 20 points back to back - apparently the system always assumes that you race at your absolute best, so if you're off form, tired, or just plain taking it easy, then you'll lose points.
Now I have got about half those points back thanks to my 2nd place on the dirt race where I picked the gravel bike and no-one else did, but I'm still considerably below my original ranking despite not trying to game the system. Imagine what you could do if you were actually attempting to lower your rank?
<Tommy>
Illegitimi non carborundum
- Location
- Camden, London
Yeah this is an independent test platform that some guys have put together hoping that Zwift will do something similar.
But you'll also notice that the likes of Hivey and Paul Smith and all the other megastars of our ZRL are high gold or platinum, which is higher than a lot of Bs (just like their ZP rankings)
It does seem rather good. There's a test event on Sunday actually where it will group people according to their ZR rankings.
I've provisionally entered it. Entries close Saturday pm and then it will automatically assign pens for the race which will be on Sunday pm.
It's 8 laps of Crit City. https://www.zwiftracing.app/zr-events
You can login to the site and claim your profile using your Strava account (I think that might be necessary to enter the race)
Interesting stuff thanks Alex. Just got to hope at some point soon they combine a new categorisation system which forces people to join the correct pen.
From a selfish perspective it’ll promote a lot of B caterogry racers to A cat. At which point my races in A will become more populated. And I’ll have more people around me with similar ability.
But… we’ve been here before haven’t we… so let’s not hold our collective breath!
alex_cycles
Veteran
- Location
- Oxfordshire
They're aware of that issue and discussion in the discord channel has given some attention to detecting this kind of behaviour. Something based on power is likely going to be implemented. I'd suggested heart rate, but that's been deemed too unreliable.
There is also an argument to say that if your result is significantly lower than expected (whether accidental or deliberate), your ranking should take a hit and the system is doing its job. (And that argument HAS been made too). The idea is that you can't cruise around in zone 2 and have your race results count towards your ranking.
<Tommy>
Illegitimi non carborundum
- Location
- Camden, London
Maybe it’s been mentioned already and I missed it. But the current ranking system on zwift power seems very odd to me. It kind of falls in line with zwift mentality of give everyone a medal for turning up.
Of course the counter argument to cruising to stay in a cat, is that these riders won't be winning races or influencing races (or am I reading it wrong)
Currently as we know from some of our friends in C, it's possible to win races fairly easily and stay in Cat. Perfectly in rules.... but if the ranking points is based on race success too then surely sandbagging can't happen?
If they cruise then they don't win. If they win, they'll get promoted.
But whatever rules are in place, someone will try to game it. All we can do is race 100%, and race to our strengths... and whichever cat that puts us in is where we race 👍
<Tommy>
Illegitimi non carborundum
- Location
- Camden, London
I did NY forward KoM climb as the finish to a Tiny Race on 5th November which really was a maximum effort (HR 196, max is 197) but got me 293W over 5 minutes. (Also got me into the top 100 Cs on ZP). But straight after that I was a B in CE.
The MAP value which must be based on that effort is 4.30 (B threshold is 4.2).
That will expire in a couple of weeks. Until then I'm getting my arse kicked in B
I so cannot wait for a results-based system. The current system is so heavily weighted towards 85kg+ sprintbaggers, it just isn't funny. I've just today got pushed out of the top 100 in C and it's chock-full of 85kg+ guys with a kilowatt sprint who could all place in top-10 on a flat B race.
Beating those ****s up the KoM in Roule Ma Poule for bronze was probably the most fun I've had this year, but they all smashed it yesterday - even that course was more sprinty than climbyBut it is what it is, and it's still fun.
I think any points system will favour people sticking to the races that suit them best. Rather than putting themselves outside they’re comfort zone. I just hope, maybe naively, that it puts people into their correct category and cleans up the system.
But then what? Maybe some the people who desperately try to stay inside a lower category than they should really be in, might then be tempted to start weight doping or fiddling their power meter to push themselves to the top of their new category rather than be sat near the back or mid table. So just playing devils advocate here. Maybe it’s just kicking the can a bit further down the road.
alex_cycles
Veteran
- Location
- Oxfordshire
There are two other issues here. Firstly a 50 or 60 point reduction is not very much when the bands for each category are several hundred points wide. And if you go down 50, in the next race you start lower so if you do it again you might only lose 10.
The other point is that there will be a race organiser customisable category and it's not necessarily meant to mean that everyone of exactly the same ability rides together. It's meant to achieve the "everyone has an enjoyable race" goal.
Of that you may be certain
alex_cycles
Veteran
- Location
- Oxfordshire
It's more like "find what sort of races you can score well at and do lots of them"
Tiny Races are about as good as you can get for ZP ranking because the quality of entries is very high and there's four of them in an hour.
I've had quite a lot of fun this autumn just seeing how high I could get, for no reason other than "because it's there" just fun.
It is rather silly though, when I enter a B race and look on ZP to see that I have one of the top 5 ZP rankings in the race when there's no chance I'll get near the top 5. It's a bit silly, really, and hopefully what the new system will sort out, when it comes.
I'd change that to ..... "find what sort of races you enjoy and do lots of them"It's more like "find what sort of races you can score well at and do lots of them"
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