Zwift Chat

[Peter Salt]

I agree with you, but because of the way the Cat system works I'd argue there's a 3rd reason for some riders who ride in a category below their true ability, and this is simply the nature of the Cat system and of most races and how they're raced.

The Cat system as we know is based on JUST 20 minute power and nothing else, but most races are decided on 1-5 minute power and/or a sprint, not 20 minute power. If you're racing sensibly, for the vast majority of races there's simply no need or reason to do high 20 minute power becuase you'll be sitting in a drafting pack and don't need to do a particularly hard 20 minute long effort. This isn't really sandbagging as such, it's just racing logically and sensibly, but it protects some riders from getting upgraded when they probably should.

Some people I'm sure go out of their way to game this part of the system too, but some who are capable of racing in a higher Cat still genuinely race as hard as they can, but simply don't exceed the Cat limits for these reasons.

That's why, if you want better categorisation (and you can't have results based systeme which most people would prefer) then you need to take more into account than 20 minute power alone. This Flamme Rouge event uses Normalised Power (NP) which is a great idea because it takes into account those high 1-2 minute power efforts which separate the top riders in a category from everyone else. E.G my 20 minute power in the last ZRL event was 273w (3.5w/kg) but NP was 324w (4.16w/kg). The Cat B winner of that race had NP of 4.53w/kg.

Totally agree with the 'accidental sandbagger' category, or whatever you want to call it. I think that's kind of what me and @BurningLegs were last season in ZRL C - despite hitting the sprints and punchy climbs balls to the wall, the blob pace in between meant we never went over cat limits. As soon as Inssbruck rolled along with its 20 min. climb, we were both over - along with 20 other people

The difference in B is they hit the sprints and punchy climbs even harder bit the blob pace is actually pretty similar. Starts actually felt harder in C

 

[Peter Salt]

Wrote the above before realising there's like 4 pages of posts

OK so I have been appointed "Team Manager" and have set up the Cyclechat team on the Flamme Rouge Racing site (https://www.flammerougeracing.com/?page=home)

If you've already registered yourself, I think you need to login, go to your profile and choose "CycleChat Riders" as your team.

There are 3 possible teams within CyclChar Riders but I believe it will default you to the first one which I've named Team CC. We can have unlimited riders in the team, so please feel free to join even if you can't make every race - our top 10 results, whatever category you race in will count each stage for the team competition.

I think we'll probably only need to use one team for everyone for now based on the responses so far - if that changes and we end up with loads of people wanting to do the whole 9 stages we can move people to another team and create a second (but I doubt that!)

Let me know if you have any problems signing up to the team

All signed up, seem to be in 'Team CC'.

Before I do anything rash - does anyone mind if I tag along - and do I have to register somewhere ?

Lovely! The more the merrier!

I will actually try to make all 8 stages. Never tried anything similar

 

[CXRAndy]

Starts actually felt harder in C

Us heavyweights can pack an early big punch.

I generally start with 600W and go with 400W for the first minute

 

[alex_cycles]

Totally agree with the 'accidental sandbagger' category, or whatever you want to call it. I think that's kind of what me and @BurningLegs were last season in ZRL C - despite hitting the sprints and punchy climbs balls to the wall, the blob pace in between meant we never went over cat limits. As soon as Inssbruck rolled along with its 20 min. climb, we were both over - along with 20 other people

The difference in B is they hit the sprints and punchy climbs even harder bit the blob pace is actually pretty similar. Starts actually felt harder in C

For me a sandbagger Tragic Gimp is someone who is capable of winning a race or doing well in a category above where they're racing, but races down a Cat simply for the feelgood of being able to podium or grab big points for their team without putting in anything close to maximum effort.

I don't think any of our lightweights who can just about exceed Cat limits if they bust themselves, but still not podium, are or were gimps at all. It's just the system is broken. If it's only pure climbing races that are decided by W/kg, it's ludicrous that that is used as the benchmark when most races aren't very climby.

 

[mjd1988]

https://zwiftinsider.com/zwiftracing/

Not sure if this has been posted or not. Pretty much what you've been talking about though?

 

[<Tommy>]

Totally agree with the 'accidental sandbagger' category, or whatever you want to call it. I think that's kind of what me and @BurningLegs were last season in ZRL C - despite hitting the sprints and punchy climbs balls to the wall, the blob pace in between meant we never went over cat limits. As soon as Inssbruck rolled along with its 20 min. climb, we were both over - along with 20 other people

The difference in B is they hit the sprints and punchy climbs even harder bit the blob pace is actually pretty similar. Starts actually felt harder in C

I agree. The caveat maybe being the wrtl league we’re in this year is the one closest to the B/C boundary so it’s not the toughest. But there does seem to have been a gradual trend as people have realised there’s no gain in going full tilt to ease off on the flat. Maybe the zwift courses lend themselves to that style too.

Us heavyweights can pack an early big punch.

I generally start with 600W and go with 400W for the first minute

Sounds like you’re pushing too hard.

For me a sandbagger Tragic Gimp is someone who is capable of winning a race or doing well in a category above where they're racing, but races down a Cat simply for the feelgood of being able to podium or grab big points for their team without putting in anything close to maximum effort.

I don't think any of our lightweights who can just about exceed Cat limits if they bust themselves, but still not podium, are or were gimps at all. It's just the system is broken. If it's only pure climbing races that are decided by W/kg, it's ludicrous that that is used as the benchmark when most races aren't very climby.

Agreed.

 

[mjd1988]

Eep I'm GHT which is b plus apparently. Damn NP!

 

[CXRAndy]

Sounds like you’re pushing too hard.

Not really, some of the courses require me do those numbers just to stay near the front, not lead. If I fell down the pack, I'd would never be able to react to leaders breaking away...

As it is I'm usually shelled out of the lead group after a climb like Titans Grove. I then have to ride with those in a similar situation-mid pack

 

[alex_cycles]

Eep I'm GHT which is b plus apparently. Damn NP!

We're getting there. Still a few more to go...

 

[Peter Salt]

Saturday 22nd and lasts for 8 days straight with five daily time slots to choose from...

View attachment 664957

One sec.... Why does Bologna say 24.6km??? We go up the bloody hill TWICE?

 

[alex_cycles]

One sec.... Why does Bologna say 24.6km??? We go up the bloody hill TWICE?

460m is twice the hill, but I thought the route was 8km so something doesn't add up. It gives a better chance of not blowing 20-minute WKG on ZP though We'll all be using crappy bikes as well. But you can choose your own wheels

 

[kipster]

460m is twice the hill, but I thought the route was 8km so something doesn't add up. It gives a better chance of not blowing 20-minute WKG on ZP though We'll all be using crappy bikes as well. But you can choose your own wheels
View attachment 665010

Up, down, up?

 

[Peter Salt]

460m is twice the hill, but I thought the route was 8km so something doesn't add up. It gives a better chance of not blowing 20-minute WKG on ZP though We'll all be using crappy bikes as well. But you can choose your own wheels
View attachment 665010

Yea, 8km - that's what I'm saying. So one way up the hill, then back to the start and then another time up the hill 3x8=24.

Edit: Kipster was quicker but I have a cat.

 

[alex_cycles]

Up, down, up?

Yeah, that works - d'oh

 

[CXRAndy]

Yea, 8km - that's what I'm saying. So one way up the hill, then back to the start and then another time up the hill 3x8=24.

View attachment 665012

It's a tough ride twice up. Did it years ago