Zwift Chat

[Norry1]

What are you basing that on?

I think there are pros and cons.

On a turbo you can be very specific and precise with training efforts. You also get the benefit of no interruptions from junctions, traffic, downhills etc. May Hayman seemed to do okay training for Paris Roubaix on Zwift

Outside you get the full specificity of muscle use, especially core which intuitively you would assume is preferable.

 

[Whorty]

Regarding zwift power results...

something that came up the other day that hadn’t occurred to me before. Zp doesn’t just eliminate the ‘sandbaggers’. It also eliminates everyone who isn’t signed up to zwiftpower who’s results are legitimate. So it’s kind of skewed and imperfect to say the least. It’s a shame zwift as a company seem to have so little interest in fixing this stuff.

Yes, and no. It doesn't eliminate them, but by law it can't include them. Unless someone actively signs up to ZP, due to GDPR data protection their data cannot be shared from Zwift to ZP.

It is a shame though as more riders than not are not included in the ZP results compared to how many take part in races. Some recent, limited data for sure, analysis showed that only about 35-40% of starters get the results showing in ZP. My race the other day, I came in 49 on the road, but show as 16 in ZP. A nice ego boost, but not really a true representation of the facts!

 

[Whorty]

What are you basing that on?

On the fact that pushing xxx watts constantly for 2 hours, whether in door or outdoor is comparable.

Edit: as Martin says, outdoors does pull in extra muscles for core etc. I wasn't impacted in ToC last year by weak core muscles over the 5 hours there, or by bike handling.

 

[CXRAndy]

He also says I've done too much high end and not enough Zone 2 base endurance.

From my limited knowledge on this subject,. upto 80% should be endurance zone 2. Peaking for the season or event with HIT towards

For us older riders its double edged. We lose alot of VO2Max which is by far the biggest limiter to high end performance. So a balance of both needs to be considered.

It all comes down to personal drive on how fit someone wants to maintain.

Then there is weight gain particular fat and muscle loss with age

God, Im painting a grim canvas

Just enjoy what you can do

 

[Norry1]

From my limited knowledge on this subject,. upto 80% should be endurance zone 2. Peaking for the season or event with HIT towards

For us older riders its double edged. We lose alot of VO2Max which is by far the biggest limiter to high end performance. So a balance of both needs to be considered.

It all comes down to personal drive on how fit someone wants to maintain.

Then there is weight gain particular fat and muscle loss with age

God, Im painting a grim canvas

Just enjoy what you can do

Agreed. Tom (coach) asked me to aim for c80% in Zone 2 in Jan. Here are his notes regarding one session...

Quite a high proportion of your work up to Jan. has been high-ish intensity, indoors, so I think we need to spend more time at basic aerobic endurance, especially given the events you have targeted.
There is a touch of 'reverse-periodization' about the approach - with some of the high intensity work coming very early in the season. This is fine as long as we plan around that. In other words, you have developed pretty high VO2Max and Threshold capacity early in the season, but you may not have the underlying stamina and general robustness to convert these 'numbers' into results. So, we will try to balance both for a while - i.e. maintaining and developing your top-end, while also developign your 'base'.
To do this you need to spend this basic aerobic time at an easy Z2 pace. Otherwise, you will get too fatigued to do either well.


Don't worry - I won't be posting every session I do. I just thought this one was interesting bearing in mind the conversation we are having on here.

 

[<Tommy>]

Yes, and no. It doesn't eliminate them, but by law it can't include them. Unless someone actively signs up to ZP, due to GDPR data protection their data cannot be shared from Zwift to ZP.

It is a shame though as more riders than not are not included in the ZP results compared to how many take part in races. Some recent, limited data for sure, analysis showed that only about 35-40% of starters get the results showing in ZP. My race the other day, I came in 49 on the road, but show as 16 in ZP. A nice ego boost, but not really a true representation of the facts!

Eliminated / not included... same thing?... it still results in the same thing at any rate... incomplete results. The point I made is that the result isn’t just skewed by people intentionally entering the wrong category, but also by people who aren’t registered with zwift power

On the fact that pushing xxx watts constantly for 2 hours, whether in door or outdoor is comparable.

Edit: as Martin says, outdoors does pull in extra muscles for core etc. I wasn't impacted in ToC last year by week core muscles over the 5 hours there, or by bike handling.

I too listed various things that effect outdoor riding that don’t effect you indoors in my original post. Watts are one thing. And indoor training is excellent for focussed training. But that doesn’t equate to exclusively training indoors being as good as training outdoors too. You might feel that the training you did allowed you to complete your outdoor rides last year. But that doesn’t mean you wouldn’t have been stronger if you’d of done more outdoor riding too. See what I mean?

 

[<Tommy>]

Agreed. Tom (coach) asked me to aim for c80% in Zone 2 in Jan. Here are his notes regarding one session...

Quite a high proportion of your work up to Jan. has been high-ish intensity, indoors, so I think we need to spend more time at basic aerobic endurance, especially given the events you have targeted.
There is a touch of 'reverse-periodization' about the approach - with some of the high intensity work coming very early in the season. This is fine as long as we plan around that. In other words, you have developed pretty high VO2Max and Threshold capacity early in the season, but you may not have the underlying stamina and general robustness to convert these 'numbers' into results. So, we will try to balance both for a while - i.e. maintaining and developing your top-end, while also developign your 'base'.
To do this you need to spend this basic aerobic time at an easy Z2 pace. Otherwise, you will get too fatigued to do either well.


Don't worry - I won't be posting every session I do. I just thought this one was interesting bearing in mind the conversation we are having on here.

This is exactly where I am at the moment! My ftp is as high as it’s ever been but I die a death on endurance. Now I need to focus on building endurance whilst sustaining power. While working and trying to avoid overload

 

[Norry1]

This is exactly where I am at the moment! My ftp is as high as it’s ever been but I die a death on endurance. Now I need to focus on building endurance whilst sustaining power. While working and trying to avoid overload

That is the other drawback with Zwift. It is so hard to avoid the temptation to race. On the road I am happy to stay in Z2, although crawling up hills at zero mph is a bit weird.

As my target events are 100 mile races - I do need a tad of endurance

 

[Alongo]

From my limited knowledge on this subject,. upto 80% should be endurance zone 2. Peaking for the season or event with HIT towards

For us older riders its double edged. We lose alot of VO2Max which is by far the biggest limiter to high end performance. So a balance of both needs to be considered.

It all comes down to personal drive on how fit someone wants to maintain.

Then there is weight gain particular fat and muscle loss with age

God, Im painting a grim canvas

Just enjoy what you can do

I agree with you Andy, personally I’m not as driven towards performance as I was five years or more ago. I feel that Zwift draws me personally into riding hard too often , although I enjoy it I think I’m going to back off and try and get more steady riding in. I’ve listened to Dr Steven Seiler ‘s podcasts about polarized training and he keeps it quite simple. ( Fast Talk podcast. Ep 75 ) , we often ride our easy efforts too hard and our hard efforts too easy . Also , with mainly sweetspot training he says the gain isn’t worth the pain as it always ends up in stagnation. So , what Martins new coach says sounds like a good long term plan to build and sustain endurance/ speed .
“Just enjoy what you do” is the best advice to live by though - he says as he prepares to take wife out on first ride on her new hybrid bike🙏😀

 

[bobinski]

Put it this way. If you took two people of equal athletic ability. One of them trained only on a turbo and the other put the miles in outside and did intervals etc on the turbo. I know which one I’d back come the summer. That’s the reason bike teams chase the sun during the winter. There’s just no substitute.

I (reluctantly 😉) agree with Tommy. It’s why my plan envisages- weather permitting- a longish outdoors ride every weekend. Plus it’s just nicer.

 

[<Tommy>]

I (reluctantly 😉) agree with Tommy. It’s why my plan envisages- weather permitting- a longish outdoors ride every weekend. Plus it’s just nicer.

If it makes you feel better it’s not me you’re (reluctantly) agreeing with. It’s pretty much everyone who has a training plan that is targeted at outdoor events. If you could train indoors alone cyclists would save a lot of money on air fares!

Check out Ritchie Porte‘s Strava feed. it gives you an idea of how pro’s focus their winter training.

 

[bobinski]

If it makes you feel better it’s not me you’re (reluctantly) agreeing with. It’s pretty much everyone who has a training plan that is targeted at outdoor events. If you could train indoors alone cyclists would save a lot of money on air fares!

Check out Ritchie Porte‘s Strava feed. it gives you an idea of how pro’s focus their winter training.

😁

Thing is a lot of peeps train on turbo alone, especially triathletes and Ironman peeps. But then it’s a completely different discipline with steady power needs.
I am still not sure about 80% z2 work though. There has to be a something in between that works as well if not better. Anyway, WTF do I know 😁 I mean, I don’t

 

[<Tommy>]

😁

Thing is a lot of peeps train on turbo alone, especially triathletes and Ironman peeps. But then it’s a completely different discipline with steady power needs.
I am still not sure about 80% z2 work though. There has to be a something in between that works as well if not better. Anyway, WTF do I know 😁 I mean, I don’t

I’m assuming people training for triathlete type events who only use a turbo do a fair bit of running and swimming too. So that in itself will give them shoulder, back, core etc conditioning?

Regarding zone 2. I guess as always different people will argue the percentage that works best. I don’t know either to be honest. But one thing I have taken from TrainerRoad is trying to avoid fatigue. Or try and avoid carrying fatigue from one day to the next until it accumulates to a point where you are exhausted if that makes sense. And I think that’s the logic behind it maybe. Balancing your HIIT efforts with your endurance efforts in a way that doesn’t create too much of a burden on your system.

 

[Norry1]

Zone 2 is all about building mitochondrial density. This is the foundation of endurance and it is best done apparently at Z2. What it does mean though is that your hard days should be really hard - and what you cut out is the middle of the road tempo type stuff.

 

[bobinski]

I’m assuming people training for triathlete type events who only use a turbo do a fair bit of running and swimming too. So that in itself will give them shoulder, back, core etc conditioning?

Regarding zone 2. I guess as always different people will argue the percentage that works best. I don’t know either to be honest. But one thing I have taken from TrainerRoad is trying to avoid fatigue. Or try and avoid carrying fatigue from one day to the next until it accumulates to a point where you are exhausted if that makes sense. And I think that’s the logic behind it maybe. Balancing your HIIT efforts with your endurance efforts in a way that doesn’t create too much of a burden on your system.

Oh yeah, they run and swim I forgot!😄

re fatigue sadly I have to worry about what I carry from one ride to another more the older I get. Sufferfest , probably like TR, reduces training load at certain points during at 2/3 week load and then you have a light week to recover. It’s why I do a fair bit of what looks like pointless low watts spinning but it’s nowhere near 80% Z2. One of their coaches is sitting out a 12 week training plan in prep for Nice and the Flanders and will be interesting to see how much Z2 there will be. Its not one to one coaching like Martin has signed up for but at least will give me a chance to see if I can keep to a plan and improve ftp and endurance.