Women's inclusion in cycling clubs

[derrick]

Clubs are always a bit hit and miss, Even our club had the idiot who put everyone down, women and men made no difference to him, Apparently no one is as good as him, He still rides with the club but has been told a few times where to go, he has calmed down a bit, but he just can't help himself.

 

[I like Skol]

Clubs are always a bit hit and miss, Even our club had the idiot who put everyone down, women and men made no difference to him, Apparently no one is as good as him, He still rides with the club but has been told a few times where to go, he has calmed down a bit, but he just can't help himself.

I'm confused now, are you talking about club members or forum members?

 

[PaulSB]

Are your cycling clubs dealing with this and, if they are, how?

This was the question and it's a great one. During lockdown spring 2020 myself and a friend spent many hours riding very locally both as a pair and singly. To spend a couple of hours riding locally is unusual for us. We became very aware of the significant number of lone female cyclists we saw. The question we asked was who are these riders? Are they interested in club riding? In late 2019 I had a long conversation with a Breeze leader from which it became apparent there is no next step from Breeze rides. In my area there are clearly a lot of female cyclists and it seems local cycle clubs are not offering what they need.

My club membership 81% male and 19% female. We have three female committee members. Within the female membership we have strong riders whose interest is in the "ride quality" - is it long enough, fast enough, hilly enough etc. In other words is it a good ride for me? These women are happy to ride in mixed groups being confident in their ability to hold their own and in some cases inflict serious pain! Other women prefer to ride at a slower pace, a more socially focused ride and don't feel confident in a mixed group.

The first thing a club must do is recognise men are the wrong people to make decisions, offer ideas, offer solutions to the women members. These things must come from the female membership. There is absolutely no point in a male committee deciding the club should offer women only rides if the women don't want them! The first steps to addressing women's interests in cycling and club membership is to bring women in to the committee, speak directly to the female membership and understand their concerns.

There are barriers to women becoming involved in cycling both solo and at club level. Clubs need to address these and offer solutions if they are to enjoy the enormous benefits of having a large female membership. In no particular order, and not exclusive to women, just a few examples:

• Understand the need for women's space - a wide societal issue
• Women's definition of a social ride differs from men's
• Is there sexism involved
• Personal safety
• Lack of women's rides
• Nervousness at wearing lycra and feeling on show
• Don't know how/can't change a tube
• Unsure how to use a GPS unit
• Not confident in traffic
• Not confident in a group
• I won't be good enough
• Today I really need to be sure there will be a toilet stop
• Lack of confidence in riding skills
• Lack confidence to ask for help
• I'm not fast enough
• A need to be away from the male gaze
• Lack of maintenance ability/knowledge (added at edit)
• Use the right words "women", "ladies", "female" (added at edit)

The key is for a club to understand what women want out of a club and the barriers to women joining a club. That will only happen by involving women in the running of the club and changing what the club offers accordingly. I'm pleased to say the club I belong to is doing this.

Kendall CC until recently had a woman as chair, the club built it's membership to one-third female two-thirds male. There is a lesson for every club in the country.

 

[mjr]

[...] the group which used to ride at 14/15 has improved to 16/17 (same riders) [...]

I think this sort of equating faster with improved really deters lots of people from clubs.

 

[Arrowfoot]

I can't belief in this day and age, we are still struggling with this. And it's cycling. By now clubs and any forms of associations should be asking themselves if they have been inclusive. And if not, did they try.

 

[PaulSB]

I think this sort of equating faster with improved really deters lots of people from clubs.

In which case would you like to provide a word which adequately describes the situation? A rider or group of riders begins to build fitness and stamina leading to their ride becoming faster. This is an improvement in their ability.

I climb better today than I did three years ago. I climb better, I've improved this aspect of my riding. One can't get away from that.

 

[PaulSB]

The first sentence is very probably true.

I don't know quite how to express the next bit. I'm sure being male is relevant but not in relation to point scoring etc.

I've some knowledge of the entry barriers for women and I'm going to post separately later. Two reasons for leaving it; to ensure I express myself properly and secondly to separate my points from a post about club quality.

The reason I say I'm not sure being male is relevant is this. If you take a look at my longer post regarding women in clubs you'll see I've listed barriers to women in cycling. Amongst these as examples are:

• Changing a tube
• Using a GPS unit
• Confidence in traffic
• Maintenance ability/knowledge

During the months spent understanding the barriers women perceive or encounter it became apparent these are spread across the sexes. There is an assumption across society that "men understand these things" it's some sort of second nature to us. This isn't true but what appears to be the case is a woman is more likely to openly acknowledge a lack of understanding and be ready to accept help.

Making assumptions is dangerous. For 18 months I've listened to a cycling friend complain the Garmin only ever gives text instructions, often too late and inaccurately - quite by chance we discovered the map screen was switched off/disabled! In another instance I was discussing with a woman the difficulties she encountered with loading routes, a male cyclist overheard and commented he could never use his GPS because he can't install the routes!

The club has recently run two basic maintenance course and will run more. We are planning a workshop on how to get the best from a GPS unit. Assuming knowledge is dangerous and applies across both sexes.

 

[mudsticks]

I can't belief in this day and age, we are still struggling with this. And it's cycling. By now clubs and any forms of associations should be asking themselves if they have been inclusive. And if not, did they try.

That phrase right there

The problem is if they're only asking themselves.

ie asking the already 'in group' they won't make much progress

The answer wil probably be.

"We don't deliberately exclude anyone, what's the problem?"

So any 'trying' for inclusivity, if it happens at all, will be misplaced, or tokenistic.

You need to go outside of the in group to find out why the ones who are put off joining, are put off, really listen to the answers, and then tackle that.
If you want to stand any chance, of improving things.

PaulSB seems to have got the reasonable beginnings of a list.

Personally I'm not interested in joining a cycling club, because I prefer to cycle by myself, it's my me time, as it is for many others, I'm sure.


But then I'm an independent minded woman, confident out by myself, able to navigate, fix a bike, and am used to looking after myself.

But tbh if I came across some of the wince inducing attitudes, and language used towards women, that I come across on here, at a prospective 'club' then I'd not hang around very long.

I still get talked down to at bike shops, even when being served by guys the same age as my kids.

I'm old enough to have taken the stabilisers off of their bikes

The sexism is endemic, the language is entrenched, it takes effort to notice it, and adjust it.

Not everyone can even be bothered to try..

One other aspect of all this which is a much broader point, is that commitment to a regular club ride at weekends.

I suspect it's other commitments which are keeping a lot of women off their bikes.
They're too busy with various 'caring duties' the child and elder care , the domestic work still largely falls to them, even in this day and age .


Many women are just not as good (yet) at ring fencing their "me time" there are still many many women who feel guilty at going out and doing things, just for fun, just for themselves.

Whereas 'time out with the lads' to do sport, or whatever is very much embedded in our culture right??

And sadly there are still women in relationships where going out by themselves, or with others, particularly in 'mixed groups' is not 'allowed' or is seen as suspect in some way.

I think and hope this is changing now, but it is slow.

I do see far more women going out, and doing stuff, nowadays, organising activities for themselves, solo and in groups, gaining confidence.

'Just doing it'

Which is great.
As this confidence and visibility increases, we may see equality building.

But if existing clubs want more women to join them, they'll have to work at deeper change.

 

[PaulSB]

That phrase right there

The problem is if they're only asking themselves.

ie asking the already 'in group' they won't make much progress

The answer wil probably be.

"We don't deliberately exclude anyone, what's the problem?"

So any 'trying' for inclusivity, if it happens at all, will be misplaced, or tokenistic.

You need to go outside of the in group to find out why the ones who are put off joining, are put off, really listen to the answers, and then tackle that.
If you want to stand any chance, of improving things.

PaulSB seems to have got the reasonable beginnings of a list.

Personally I'm not interested in joining a cycling club, because I prefer to cycle by myself, it's my me time, as it is for many others, I'm sure.


But then I'm an independent minded woman, confident out by myself, able to navigate, fix a bike, and am used to looking after myself.

But tbh if I came across some of the wince inducing attitudes, and language used towards women, that I come across on here, at a prospective 'club' then I'd not hang around very long.

I still get talked down to at bike shops, even when being served by guys the same age as my kids.

I'm old enough to have taken the stabilisers off of their bikes

The sexism is endemic, the language is entrenched, it takes effort to notice it, and adjust it.

Not everyone can even be bothered to try..

One other aspect of all this which is a much broader point, is that commitment to a regular club ride at weekends.

I suspect it's other commitments which are keeping a lot of women off their bikes.
They're too busy with various 'caring duties' the child and elder care , the domestic work still largely falls to them, even in this day and age .


Many women are just not as good (yet) at ring fencing their "me time" there are still many many women who feel guilty at going out and doing things, just for fun, just for themselves.

Whereas 'time out with the lads' to do sport, or whatever is very much embedded in our culture right??

And sadly there are still women in relationships where going out by themselves, or with others, particularly in 'mixed groups' is not 'allowed' or is seen as suspect in some way.

I think and hope this is changing now, but it is slow.

I do see far more women going out, and doing stuff, nowadays, organising activities for themselves, solo and in groups, gaining confidence.

'Just doing it'

Which is great.
As this confidence and visibility increases, we may see equality building.

But if existing clubs want more women to join them, they'll have to work at deeper change.

I've had every point you've listed expressed to me, I just chose a point at which to stop. The most difficult area is to "get outside the club/group." How do males do this? It first needs trust to be built before one can get to the nub of the matter - difficult for a man for reasons I'm sure we both appreciate. Our approach was to get women involved in determining what is needed, this was partly done by those women talking to other women outside our club both directly and on social media. The results were surprising and changed the club's offer/view, when I say surprising it was a surprise to the women asking the questions! As I've tried to say assumptions are dangerous.

I don't want to divert this discussion but will relate a recent attitude I encountered. Over a beer myself and two other men were discussing the need for women's rides. All retired, one 55, me 67, the other early 60s. I commented "it's about understanding the need for women's (safe) spaces not just in cycling but society." One nodded and continued the conversation, the other looked at me blankly clearly wondering "what on earth is he on about." I don't pretend to have a true understanding of "women's spaces", a little but not much. I know the need exists and while I struggle to fully understand I don't struggle with accepting the need or desire. Lets keep it to cycling and simply understand that within a cycling club there needs to be an environment in which women feel comfortable in every sense of the word.

 

[mudsticks]

I've had every point you've listed expressed to me, I just chose a point at which to stop. The most difficult area is to "get outside the club/group." How do males do this? It first needs trust to be built before one can get to the nub of the matter - a difficult for reasons I'm sure we both appreciate. Our approach was to get women involved in determining what is needed, this was partly done by those women talking to other women outside our club both directly and on social media. The results were surprising and changed the club's offer/view, when I say surprising it was a surprise to the women asking the questions! As I've tried to say assumptions are dangerous.

I don't want to divert this discussion but will relate a recent attitude I encountered. Over a beer myself and two other men were discussing the need for women's rides. All retired, one 55, me 67, the other early 60s. I commented "it's about understanding the need for women's (safe) spaces not just in cycling but society." One nodded and continued the conversation, the other looked at me blankly clearly wondering "what on earth is he on about." I don't pretend to have a true understanding of "women's spaces", a little but not much. I know the need exists while I struggle to fully understand I don't struggle with accepting the need or desire. Lets keep it to cycling and simply understand within a cycling club there needs to be an environment in which women feel comfortable in every sense of the word.

Yup the need for listening and consideration of other people's experiences is ongoing .
It's a process, not a one stop survey .

You often hear the old phrase

"I just don't understand women"

Or variation thereof, trotted out.

Upon enquiry you discover the effort made to gain understanding has been approximately nil.

The meaningful conversations, and active listening done often amount to the same near zero tally.

Alongside of course that other assumption that women are some sort of separate, and 'unknowable' species.

Yet at the same time wholly homogeneous as a group in their needs, likes, dislikes, and issues.

Thankfully attitudes are changing, but very slowly .

I suspect many of the issues that put women off joining cycling clubs, are very similar to those that would be exclude some men from doing so.

That's not to say so that there aren't some very 'female specific' barriers that need tackling.

It's ongoing work.

Edited to add in response to 'lets keep it to cycling clubs'

The point is that people in cycling clubs bring the same attitudes from the rest of their lives to the cycling club .

So if they have sexist attitudes outside , they'll be brought with them, right.?

They can't be tackled only in certain places, ignored elsewhere, it just doesn't work like that.

 

[mjr]

In which case would you like to provide a word which adequately describes the situation?

Accelerated? Increased? Sped up?

A rider or group of riders begins to build fitness and stamina leading to their ride becoming faster. This is an improvement in their ability.

But it is not necessarily an improvement in the ride. Indeed, it may make it inaccessible to some.

I climb better today than I did three years ago. I climb better, I've improved this aspect of my riding. One can't get away from that.

I assume better means faster to you, but it could mean more efficient, less straining, able to ride steeper max gradients, or other things.

But this may be ableism more than sexism so I guess we are straying offtopic.

 

[yello]

So any 'trying' for inclusivity, if it happens at all, will be misplaced, or tokenistic.

I'm reminded of another debate, with a similar inclusivity question, where the response was something along the lines of 'we don't need you to solve our problems, we don't need your help, to be looked down on or patronised, we want you to respect that we can do it ourselves in our way, give us the space and stop the judgement'

 

[Dogtrousers]

I'm reminded of another debate, with a similar inclusivity question, where the response was something along the lines of 'we don't need you to solve our problems, we don't need your help, to be looked down on or patronised, we want you to respect that we can do it ourselves in our way, give us the space and stop the judgement'

So what are the practical implications of that reported point of view for male dominated cycling clubs?

No action needed. It might be considered patronising if we changed anything.
Next item, about that 15mph beginners ride. Isn't it a bit slow?

 

[Scoosh]

@fair weather cyclist – Edinburgh & Lothians CTC run rides which I understand cater for all ages and stages.
Edinburgh Belles on Bikes is aimed at beginners, I believe - and you might even find @Telemark (Mrs EdFoC) leading a ride...

Some years ago, when we started the CC Écosse rides, there were (and still are, when they happen) 3 Rulz:
– any bike will do
– no one gets left behind
– there will be cake

It works !

 

[mudsticks]

@fair weather cyclist – Edinburgh & Lothians CTC run rides which I understand cater for all ages and stages.
Edinburgh Belles on Bikes is aimed at beginners, I believe - and you might even find @Telemark (Mrs EdFoC) leading a ride...

Some years ago, when we started the CC Écosse rides, there were (and still are, when they happen) 3 Rulz:
– any bike will do
– no one gets left behind
– there will be cake

It works !

First rule of any group activity .

There must always be cake .

If I'm organising any event for anyone, of any particular 'grouping' or none ..

Sort out the cake.