Woman convicted of manslaughter after swearing and gesturing at 77 year old cyclist.

[Jameshow]

I think a key difference is that he was reckless towards other road users, whereas Ms Grey
actively went on the attack.

I've mixed feelings about the motorist. The incident was not their fault, but on the other hand, the letter of the code does tell drivers to slow down when passing pedestrians even on pavements, but we don't know, maybe they did and unfortunately the victim didn't survive anyway. But most traffic on that ring doesn't slow when passing people.

Wouldn't you put yourself in danger rather than knock a pedestrian/ cyclist over, at 30mph with airbags the damage to another motorist is likely to be much less.

 

[DaveReading]

couldn't be charged with manslaughter under those conditions and had to be charged with "wanton and furious driving"

He was tried on both charges.

 

[HMS_Dave]

He was tried on both charges.

Indeed. Ive been reading up on the case to remind me since it was mentioned.

 

[mjr]

And yet in the same article:

"A Cambridgeshire County Council spokesperson said: "We cannot categorically say it is a shared use path as we could not find any legal records to evidence this."

If they're not putting the recent (post-1990s) round blue signs up, who is? If it is them, why are they signing stuff they don't know its status?

Anyway, the best approach would be to redesign that whole ring road to modern standards, which would be an ideal opportunity to fix the legalities.

 

[Alex321]

There doesn't seem much relevance. I believe the offence happened on the highway. I remember the case, Charlie Alliston? I think. His charge came under a different law. I believe he could not be charged under the Road Traffic Act 1988 because his vehicle is not engine powered and couldn't be charged with manslaughter under those conditions and had to be charged with "wanton and furious driving" Which is a law which dates back to the 1800's and carries a maximum penalty of 2 years. He did try to warn the pedestrian but apparently she stopped and panicked and his bike was a fixie with no front brakes and it was deemed that if he had front brakes the collision could have been avoided. Where the relevance lies is probably in the fact that both the convicted had little remorse for their victims.

There is perhaps an argument for a law change and im not aware if any have been made since. I think Charlie got off lightly for sure and there are other examples too, but that wasn't down to lenient sentencing for any other reason than the law IMO was incapable of doing so and hasn't caught up with modern conditions on our roads.

He could be charged under the Road Traffic Act 1988 - but not with the offence of causing death by dangerous driving, as that patcular offence does only apply to motor vehicles.

There are separate offences of cycling dangerously (section 27) and Cycling carelessly or inconsiderately (section 29). And while they have been modified, those laws were in place right from the date the Act was passed.

 

[steveindenmark]

The whole situation is tragic. It appears that the defendant has mental health problems and putting her in a mainstream prison would be pointless. She obviously needs help and I doubt if she will get it where she is going and so an even more damaged person will be released to the community.

 

[CXRAndy]

I feel for the motorist involved by the pure misfortune of being there.

I do too, but at the same time the vast majority of drivers don't consider actions of what happens on the pavement relevant to them driving.

I often always move away from the kerb when driving when I see two people walking down the path and one pedestrian is close to the edge. Or dog walker with a bouncy dog on the lead.

I don't want to be like this woman driver, bad luck and timing kill someone coming off a path.

Try and think what could go wrong

 

[Mike_P]

If they're not putting the recent (post-1990s) round blue signs up, who is? If it is them, why are they signing stuff they don't know its status?

Anyway, the best approach would be to redesign that whole ring road to modern standards, which would be an ideal opportunity to fix the legalities.

If it's anything like North Yorkshire where the signs are and where the cycleway is only has a slim chance of being accurately related. Local cycle route has signs that direct along the road not the cycleway with this being the worse;

The cycleway goes through the trees, the sign directs up grade to, at times, heavily congested traffic light controlled T junction with the A61.
I complained when it went up but North Yorkshire could not see what was wrong with its siting

 

[matticus]

I contrast this case with that of the young male cyclist riding iirc an illegal bike, in a dangerous manner in the City, a year or few ago. He collided with and killed a wife and mother. He was found not guilty of Manslaughter, and received a significantly shorter sentence.

So you're comparing a completely different kind of collision, between very different people? What's the point?

You're entitled to view both sentences as wrong, if you wish, but the comparison is pointless: manslaughter cases will come in hundreds of variations.

 

[notmyrealnamebutclose]

Interesting thought - I also wonder what the response and tone of conversation on here and in the media would have been if the cyclist had been a child ??

It it accepted that a childs life is considered more valuable than that of an old persons life and the sentence would have
reflected that.

 

[icowden]

You're entitled to view both sentences as wrong, if you wish, but the comparison is pointless: manslaughter cases will come in hundreds of variations.

Also the sentences come in hundreds of variations. That the old bat went was sent to prison is a reflection on her as much as the offence. The Judge was not impressed by her to say the least.

 

[HMS_Dave]

The whole situation is tragic. It appears that the defendant has mental health problems and putting her in a mainstream prison would be pointless. She obviously needs help and I doubt if she will get it where she is going and so an even more damaged person will be released to the community.

Hard to agree. It's tragic for the victims for sure, Im unconvinced that the convict is a victim.

I don't think she has mental health problems. At least in the eyes of the Judge Sean Enright who said sentencing the convict"
“These actions are not explained by disability.”
He said that Grey, of Huntingdon, had no mental disorder or learning difficulties.

Part of the Prison "Statement Of Purpose":
"Our duty is to look after them with humanity and help them lead law abiding and useful lives in custody and after release"

Which seems ideal scenario for the convict. I really doubt she's going to Alcatraz.

I can't imagine it helped her case that she showed no remorse until sentencing when it dawned on her that she was going to prison. Judges tend to take a pretty dim view of such people in the court room and can certainly sway the length of a sentence.

All of this seemed like it was largely in the hands of the convict to control. Everything totally avoidable and it's ultimately a tragedy for the victims and their families that have a life sentence of grief at the selfish actions of an individual.

 

[T4tomo]

Hard to agree. It's tragic for the victims for sure, Im unconvinced that the convict is a victim.

I don't think she has mental health problems. At least in the eyes of the Judge Sean Enright who said sentencing the convict"
“These actions are not explained by disability.”
He said that Grey, of Huntingdon, had no mental disorder or learning difficulties.

Part of the Prison "Statement Of Purpose":
"Our duty is to look after them with humanity and help them lead law abiding and useful lives in custody and after release"

Which seems ideal scenario for the convict. I really doubt she's going to Alcatraz.

I can't imagine it helped her case that she showed no remorse until sentencing when it dawned on her that she was going to prison. Judges tend to take a pretty dim view of such people in the court room and can certainly sway the length of a sentence.

All of this seemed like it was largely in the hands of the convict to control. Everything totally avoidable and it's ultimately a tragedy for the victims and their families that have a life sentence of grief at the selfish actions of an individual.

agree, I suspect she was using her "disabilities" as a smoke screen. She came across as self entitled believing that bit of path was for her and her alone, aggressively forcing an elderly cyclist off it, and sadly to her death.


I've met a similar type on a shared use canal towpath, where despite having slowed to approx walking pace to pass safely she was still waving a lock spanner and yelling "dismount, dismount" at us!

 

[KnittyNorah]

Hard to agree. It's tragic for the victims for sure, Im unconvinced that the convict is a victim.

I don't think she has mental health problems. At least in the eyes of the Judge Sean Enright who said sentencing the convict"
“These actions are not explained by disability.”
He said that Grey, of Huntingdon, had no mental disorder or learning difficulties.

Part of the Prison "Statement Of Purpose":
"Our duty is to look after them with humanity and help them lead law abiding and useful lives in custody and after release"

Which seems ideal scenario for the convict. I really doubt she's going to Alcatraz.

I can't imagine it helped her case that she showed no remorse until sentencing when it dawned on her that she was going to prison. Judges tend to take a pretty dim view of such people in the court room and can certainly sway the length of a sentence.

All of this seemed like it was largely in the hands of the convict to control. Everything totally avoidable and it's ultimately a tragedy for the victims and their families that have a life sentence of grief at the selfish actions of an individual.

Agree.

At first - especially with my having spent recent years with a severe visual impairment - I thought
WTF? That's VERY harsh! 3 years prison for a perfectly natural reaction for a severely VI person to some teenage yobbo overtaking at speed, unseen, on a narrow pavement, mere inches away from her ... poor woman, she must have been simply terrified ...

THEN I saw the video clip and my opinion changed to
WTF? ONLY 3 years for causing a harmless old lady's death for no reason - and walking away from it as if nothing had happened? What a nasty, selfish, self-entitled old ratbag!

None of us here are, nor should we be, party to the full range of reports and assessments which will certainly have been carried out on and for this convict, and merely being a nasty selfish old rat-bag is not a crime. However, after reports, the judge ruled that her actions were 'not explained by disability' and added that Grey had no mental disorder or learning difficulties and that the pavement was 2.4 metres wide at the point of contact which meant it was an easily 'shared path on the ring road'.

With that summing up of no relevant disability, mental disorder or learning difficulties, I suspect that there's some type or level of personality disorder involved in these reprehensible, indeed evil, actions.

That said, though, I would like to add that the Women's Prison Estate (or whatever it's called now) is generally very, very different to the men's, and there is usually a decent range of help available for those women who need it and who wish to engage with it. Let's hope that this woman - for the sake of people who may run up against her when she is released - does wish to engage with appropriate help and can do so with a positive outcome.

 

[All uphill]

That the old bat went was sent to prison is a reflection on her as much as the offence

I'm sure you are correct, but I'm not sure that, in a fair world, an "old bat" should get a more harsh sentence than a silken-tongued classmate of the judge.