Woman convicted of manslaughter after swearing and gesturing at 77 year old cyclist.

[Jameshow]

I have many a patient just like her!!

 

[Cycleops]

I have many a patient just like her!!

Which means in relation to this case?

 

[Jameshow]

T

Which means in relation to this case?

There are many people out there who have a chip on their shoulder who given the wrong time and place could easily do the same. Often life has given them a carp hand of cards...

 

[ebikeerwidnes]

T


There are many people out there who have a chip on their shoulder who given the wrong time and place could easily do the same. Often life has given them a carp hand of cards...

Yup - I have taught some of them - and their kids

Doesn't excuse using this as an excuse to screw up someone else's life such as
the poor woman who died
her family
and the car driver

I started out thinking the sentence was excessively harsh - but the more I read and see then the more I think she was lucky to get away without a more serious charge and more jail time

Still - I wasn;t in the court room so I don;t know all the evidence so I expect the judge (etc) are in the best place to judge!

 

[tom73]

As others have uggested, a sorry situation for all involved; and full of so many potentially immensely significant unknowns.

The "killer" clearly has a miserable life beset with all manner of health issues. While it's widely stated that she has no leaning / mental health issues; I'd question whether this is actually the case from her behaviour.. and whether there isn't something undiagnosed going on.

On top of that there's the question of whether the path was legitimately intended for shared use - personally I have no time for cyclists who ride on the path (admittedly vulnerable users such as small kids and the clearly elderly / infirm usually excepted) and have voiced my disgust toward those riding on pavements alongside roads as it's potentially dangerous and contributes to our collective poor image in the eyes of the public.

There's also the matter of whether there was contact / intentional pushing of the victim.

Given the unknowns involved suggest two potentially very different situations if the extremes are viewed:

1. Pavement is for pedestrians only. Physically and mentally vulnerable Grey sees cyclist coming towards her and legitimately, if exaggeratedly protests out of fear for her safety and legitimate umbridge at the cyclist being on the path, no contact occurs, cyclist falls off.

2. Pavement is shared. Angry and belligerent Grey ignores the need to accommodate others on the route and arrogantly attacks the cyclist who has every right to be there; shoving her off the bike into the path of the car.

While the reality is probably somewhere between these extremes, tbh I'm somewhat shocked by the weight of the sentence imposed given all the unknowns invoved; however it seems that Grey's conduct / lack of remorse hasn't done her any favours.. however if this is the result of a lack of mental capacity / ability to fully understand the repercussions of her actions, is this fair? I think at least she deserved assessment for developmental conditions / mental health during the trial; which apparently didn't take place.

I guess you could arge that the three year sentence handed down could be considered somewhere between what would have been appropriate for either of the two extremes postulated above.

Ultimately an enormously hard one to call, undermined by a chronic lack of information and a sad, sad state of affairs for all concerned

The unknown's clearly are due to what's in the public reports. As the investigating officer has said the court was presented with all matters in the case. Inc detailed information of the case and all medical reports.
Her fitness to plee is not in question or the judge would have held a hearing to determine guilt only. The CPS clearly when presented with all the facts felt the that she should be charged. It not easy to get a cases passed the CPS unless matters of law are met, it's in the public interest to prosecute and it's a good change of a result.
Assessment of her fitness and care needs started long before the case. It will have started once in custody she will have been regarded as vulnerable and having care needs. So will have had to be formally assessed by the Custody Nurse who has full access to any medical records , be cleared for interview by them and any care needs when in custody formally recored on her custody record. The custody sergeant will have been informed and made sure she was correctly cared for and interviewed in line with her interview needs (if any) eg brakes or with an arropitate adult.

The jury having been given all the fact's in court found her actions unlawful and the judge passed sentence in line with what was presented in court, and any legal maters put forward by the Prosecution and defence council's. Together with per- sentencing reports. So we can only really be guided by them. It's not very clear in my mind that she would have cooperated with a community sentence and would have been back to court for braking it. 3 years is a fair sentence I've know people with way more care needs end up in prison. As with all prisoners she will have been formally accessed by a HCP from prison health care when she arrived at reception. They will have access to all health assessments inc paper work that cleared her fit to transport.

 

[icowden]

Assessment of her fitness and care needs started long before the case. It will have started once in custody she will have been regarded as vulnerable and having care needs. So will have had to be formally assessed by the Custody Nurse who has full access to any medical records , be cleared for interview by them and any care needs when in custody formally recored on her custody record.

And indeed if there was a route to defence of being incapable, her Barrister would have taken it.

 

[Jameshow]

Yup - I have taught some of them - and their kids

Doesn't excuse using this as an excuse to screw up someone else's life such as
the poor woman who died
her family
and the car driver

I started out thinking the sentence was excessively harsh - but the more I read and see then the more I think she was lucky to get away without a more serious charge and more jail time

Still - I wasn;t in the court room so I don;t know all the evidence so I expect the judge (etc) are in the best place to judge!

Agreed.

No need to swear at me.. I often think!!

 

[KnittyNorah]

I feel for the motorist involved by the pure misfortune of being there.

Many years ago - I think I must've been about 10 or 12, so late 1950s - a teenage girl a few years older than me died on the main road which ran through the village we both lived in. She was 'run over' by a car and suffered unsurvivable injuries. In hindsight, from village gossip and from bits I overheard my parents say, I gathered it was suicide, but it was never spoken of as such - this was 'back in the day' when such things were not spoken of by most, and there was often still a degree of shame, rather sympathy for a tragedy, attached to the families of suicide victims.

There were several reliable witnesses to the girl's death.
Basically she threw herself into the path of a car which had just driven through the village, and was killed instantly by massive head trauma.
Mr J, the driver of the car which she had thrown herself under, lived just a few miles up the road. He was never blamed by anyone in the village, or by the police. At the inquest, the coroner made a specific point of exonerating him completely from any blame in this 'undoubted tragedy of the unexplained death of a vibrant young woman' and pondered over what might have caused her to suddenly fling herself into into the road. He reiterated that Mr J had done nothing whatsoever that was blameworthy and her family were also clear that no blame lay with him.

Poor Mr J. He was consumed with guilt and flashbacks and eventually had a severe 'nervous breakdown' at which point he lost his job. I remember asking my mother about it a few years later, and she said she wasn't sure, but she thought that he'd recovered to at least some extent as she'd had heard that he'd got a new job and he and his wife had moved to another part of the country where there wouldn't be the daily triggers and reminders round every corner.

Back then of course, psychotherapeutic drugs were only just being developed , and the benefits of the 'talking therapies' were not well understood by most.

I hope very much that the motorist involved in the current case can access all the help that she needs, for as long as she needs, to get through this awful trauma.

 

[Jameshow]

I feel for the motorist involved by the pure misfortune of being there.

Many years ago - I think I must've been about 10 or 12, so late 1950s - a teenage girl a few years older than me died on the main road which ran through the village we both lived in. She was 'run over' by a car and suffered unsurvivable injuries. In hindsight, from village gossip and from bits I overheard my parents say, I gathered it was suicide, but it was never spoken of as such - this was 'back in the day' when such things were not spoken of by most, and there was often still a degree of shame, rather sympathy for a tragedy, attached to the families of suicide victims.

There were several reliable witnesses to the girl's death.
Basically she threw herself into the path of a car which had just driven through the village, and was killed instantly by massive head trauma.
Mr J, the driver of the car which she had thrown herself under, lived just a few miles up the road. He was never blamed by anyone in the village, or by the police. At the inquest, the coroner made a specific point of exonerating him completely from any blame in this 'undoubted tragedy of the unexplained death of a vibrant young woman' and pondered over what might have caused her to suddenly fling herself into into the road. He reiterated that Mr J had done nothing whatsoever that was blameworthy and her family were also clear that no blame lay with him.

Poor Mr J. He was consumed with guilt and flashbacks and eventually had a severe 'nervous breakdown' at which point he lost his job. I remember asking my mother about it a few years later, and she said she wasn't sure, but she thought that he'd recovered to at least some extent as she'd had heard that he'd got a new job and he and his wife had moved to another part of the country where there wouldn't be the daily triggers and reminders round every corner.

Back then of course, psychotherapeutic drugs were only just being developed , and the benefits of the 'talking therapies' were not well understood by most.

I hope very much that the motorist involved in the current case can access all the help that she needs, for as long as she needs, to get through this awful trauma.

I knew a similar case she pulled out and a speeding motorcyclist went over her bonnet and was killed, she died sometime later due to suicide...

 

[KnittyNorah]

I knew a similar case she pulled out and a speeding motorcyclist went over her bonnet and was killed, she died sometime later due to suicide...

How very sad.
I worked for a few years with someone who'd injured someone very badly in a similar-sounding sort of accident - speeding motorcyclist came off his bike on a corner, sliding over the road and under her wheels while she was braking hard. No blame attached to her - in fact she was assured that her actions had minimised his injuries. She had intensive counselling and was 'ok-ish', but she never drove again.

 

[PK99]

I contrast this case with that of the young male cyclist riding iirc an illegal bike, in a dangerous manner in the City, a year or few ago. He collided with and killed a wife and mother. He was found not guilty of Manslaughter, and received a significantly shorter sentence.

 

[DaveReading]

I contrast this case with that of the young male cyclist riding iirc an illegal bike, in a dangerous manner in the City, a year or few ago. He collided with and killed a wife and mother. He was found not guilty of Manslaughter, and received a significantly shorter sentence.

2017

 

[HMS_Dave]

I contrast this case with that of the young male cyclist riding iirc an illegal bike, in a dangerous manner in the City, a year or few ago. He collided with and killed a wife and mother. He was found not guilty of Manslaughter, and received a significantly shorter sentence.

There doesn't seem much relevance. I believe the offence happened on the highway. I remember the case, Charlie Alliston? I think. His charge came under a different law. I believe he could not be charged under the Road Traffic Act 1988 because his vehicle is not engine powered and couldn't be charged with manslaughter under those conditions and had to be charged with "wanton and furious driving" Which is a law which dates back to the 1800's and carries a maximum penalty of 2 years. He did try to warn the pedestrian but apparently she stopped and panicked and his bike was a fixie with no front brakes and it was deemed that if he had front brakes the collision could have been avoided. Where the relevance lies is probably in the fact that both the convicted had little remorse for their victims.

There is perhaps an argument for a law change and im not aware if any have been made since. I think Charlie got off lightly for sure and there are other examples too, but that wasn't down to lenient sentencing for any other reason than the law IMO was incapable of doing so and hasn't caught up with modern conditions on our roads.

 

[mjr]

I contrast this case with that of the young male cyclist riding iirc an illegal bike, in a dangerous manner in the City, a year or few ago. He collided with and killed a wife and mother. He was found not guilty of Manslaughter, and received a significantly shorter sentence.

I think a key difference is that he was reckless towards other road users, whereas Ms Grey
actively went on the attack.

I've mixed feelings about the motorist. The incident was not their fault, but on the other hand, the letter of the code does tell drivers to slow down when passing pedestrians even on pavements, but we don't know, maybe they did and unfortunately the victim didn't survive anyway. But most traffic on that ring doesn't slow when passing people.

 

[presta]

"The trial was told that police could not "categorically" state whether the pavement was a shared cycleway, but in his sentencing remarks Judge Sean Enright said it was."

And yet in the same article:

"A Cambridgeshire County Council spokesperson said: "We cannot categorically say it is a shared use path as we could not find any legal records to evidence this."