Wiggins is now pro-compulsion it seems .... Nobber.

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benb

Evidence based cyclist
Location
Epsom
Doctor said. Please note the use of the word probably. Not definately.

First off, I am glad that your friend is OK.

However, there is a worrying tendency for healthcare workers in particular to offer opinions that they are simply not qualified to give.
They have expertise in fixing the human body after it is broken, but unless they have expertise in materials science, they are completely talking outside their field of expertise to opine that a helmet did or did not make any difference.

The fact is that without precisely recreating the conditions of the collision without a helmet on, you and your friend (and everyone else) can not have the first clue whether it helped, made it worse, or made no difference.

Most of the time, we can't tell in specific cases whether a helmet would have made any difference.
What we can tell, is that there is no statistically detectable protective effect from helmets.
 

Licramite

Über Member
Location
wiltshire
Can you prove that the helmet didn't cause the collision?
well unless if fell over his eyes , can't quite see how his helmet could cause the collision? please explain oh font of all knowledge and we shall bow down to your Superior wisdom.
 

w00hoo_kent

One of the 64K
@Joffey OK, I can't bear it.

Back away from the 'debate' now, unless you can answer the following (honestly, it's like watching lions circle a wounded antelope).

What were the doctors credentials in mechanical engineering, i.e. while he possibly knows bone structure and neurosurgery (but be prepared to defend those too, heaven forfend he was merely a GP spouting off) does he actually know anything at all about how helmets work. (OK, I've been TMN'd a bit while typing the warning, I'll not mention the 'did he repeat the accident without the helmet on' question. They are circling faster now, they can taste blood in the... erm... savannah?)

Helmets are tested to work properly at a very specific speed, was he going at that speed? (The thing is you are fighting statistics here, on average, helmets do no good and en masse they do worse but then we're talking obesity vs head injury which is an odd pairing to get your head around).

Look, they've fallen in to name calling, I can't waste the time typing anymore. Pull the emergency lever and punch out of here while you still can. They mostly come at night... ...mostly.
 

Joffey

Big Dosser
Location
Yorkshire
Poor old Glenn must be a bit bored this afternoon looking for a wind up. Sorry Glenn, I'm not biting.

First off, I am glad that your friend is OK.

However, there is a worrying tendency for healthcare workers in particular to offer opinions that they are simply not qualified to give.
They have expertise in fixing the human body after it is broken, but unless they have expertise in materials science, they are completely talking outside their field of expertise to opine that a helmet did or did not make any difference.

The fact is that without precisely recreating the conditions of the collision without a helmet on, you and your friend (and everyone else) can not have the first clue whether it helped, made it worse, or made no difference.

Most of the time, we can't tell in specific cases whether a helmet would have made any difference.
What we can tell, is that there is no statistically detectable protective effect from helmets.

I can't agree with you more, the point I was making is that he smashed his head, had a helmet on, if I smashed my head like he did weighing everything up my uneducated (compared to the experts) opinion is I would rather a helmet on.

I am not arguing for or against helmet use, helmet compulsion or trying to change anyones opinions. I nipped on to see why folk were anti helmet, that's all. It's a bit of a shame that you get the far right of the argument (aka Glenn) spoiling a decent discussion.
 

lee1980sim

Senior Member
Location
South Yorkshire
Is it not common sense that until it's legal to wear helmets on motorised quads and trikes then it can't be made compulsory on cycles, there's no logic
 
Just out of interest why is wearing a helmet a detrimental thing? Apart from the looks... Is there evidence to say you are more likely to get brain damage by hitting your head on the floor with a helmet on?
Some reasons why helmets are worn:
It is common sense, a "no brainer", a layer of protection between your head and the ground is obviously a good thing.
The counter argument:
Your skull is about 20 times harder than polystyrene.
A helmet makes your head much bigger so more likely to hit something.
A cycling helmet does not have a polished smooth surface with an outer membrane that would then allow it to slide along a road surface without snagging and possibly twisting your neck. [rotational injury], vents make this even more likely.
Despite better reporting of head injuries, there has been no reduction observed.
Neck injuries that have occurred after a cycling incident by those who wear a helmet are not recorded, also not recorded as far as I am aware are those cyclists who were not wearing a helmet in an accident and did not have a head injury.
The cause of brain injury is the acceleration and de-acceleration of the brain against the skull [excepting penetrating injuries - rare], a helmet does nothing to stop this.
Purely anecdotal, and in some measure from forums such as this, those who choose to wear a helmet appear to hit their heads more often.

Pro cyclists wear them so it must be the right thing to do.
CA:
The governing body of pro cycling, the UCI have a pretty abysmal track record when it comes to decision making, those who follow pro cycling will understand this.
Amateurs will blindly follow whatever the pro cyclists wear in order to look like them.

It will become law because the percentage of those wearing a helmet is growing.
CA
Difficult to comment on this as no firm evidence is available, certainly amongst those mamils new to cycling, but no evidence to show all cyclists are following this trend, perhaps the reverse in some areas of the UK. In other countries, particularly The Netherlands, Denmark and to a large extent Germany helmets are not worn [except by mamils, and then not all], even children who ride to school [not all on cycle paths] do not wear helmets.

Would I wear a helmet if it could be proven beyond reasonable doubt that it will make me safer? No, simply because I do not think cycling is a dangerous activity, to promote any other view is in itself dangerous. There are many cyclists who only wear a helmet because a non cyclist [usually a relative] have told them to do so.
I am probably unusual in that I believe helmets actually cause injuries, not the superficial type as in road rash etc but in neck injuries. There are also head injuries which would never even have occurred had a helmet not been worn.
Helmet sales are a billion pound industry so your local lbs is highly incentivised to sell you a helmet. Other third parties may have a vested interest in these sales which may or may not have a skewed view on helmet wearing.
 

w00hoo_kent

One of the 64K
I nipped on to see why folk were anti helmet, that's all.
1 - There's no proof they save any lives
2 - There's as much proof they hurt you as help you
3 - There's actual real proof that they put people (as a huge group rather than specific individuals) off of cycling
4 - There's reasonable data that less people cycling endangers all the people cycling
5 - There's reasonable data that less people cycling means more people dying from obesity related maladies
6 - They make cycling look dangerous because they suggest you need safety equipment to do it
7 - People get more head injuries doing things that nobody is asking them to wear a helmet for
8 - They are a bit hot
9 - They look dorky
10 - They are annoying to carry around when you get to where you are going, especially if you did it on a hired bike.

Of course, the argument as @ianrauk says, isn't that they are anti-helmet but that they are anti compulsion. And, to be fair, I count in the they there. As mentioned somewhere (probably here) I either wear a lot of helmet, or no helmet and interchange as I feel comfortable. That's because my reasons for don't really mesh with the reasons against because the reasons against are largely large group based and my reasons for are individual.

I don't believe a helmet will save my life, I do believe my helmet will save some annoying scrapes and bruises which I'd prefer not to have. I back this up because I know people who have been hurt in offs that haven't threatened their lives in ways that have left them with scrapes and bruises I'd prefer not to have.

I'm sceptical of the chance of rotational injuries, it's a risk I'm aware of and decide to take.

It won't put me off of cycling, I have somewhere to put it when I get to wherever I'm going (and if I don't is a time I'll likely choose not to wear one) and I do believe there is a danger of being hit by a car during my commute, I believe the concept of 'cycling is not dangerous' is being taken very much in isolation of the conditions an urban commuter cycles in.

But I like to choose and would hate to be forced to wear one (in fact, being a contrary git if it was law I'd probably wear one less), When I go out with my wife's Guide troop on their annual cycle fiasco as tech crew I wear a cap, partly because we are averaging 5 miles an hour, largely because they all have to wear helmets otherwise the Guide Association won't insure the event.

I realise some of this is TMN again, it took me a while to write, I hope it's sufficiently different (while obviously in no way new & original because, well, helment debate.)
 

benb

Evidence based cyclist
Location
Epsom
I can't agree with you more, the point I was making is that he smashed his head, had a helmet on, if I smashed my head like he did weighing everything up my uneducated (compared to the experts) opinion is I would rather a helmet on.

I am not arguing for or against helmet use, helmet compulsion or trying to change anyones opinions. I nipped on to see why folk were anti helmet, that's all. It's a bit of a shame that you get the far right of the argument (aka Glenn) spoiling a decent discussion.

That's not what you said - you said your friend would probably have died without the helmet. I'm saying you can't possibly know that, and nor can the doctor who said it.
That's what I object to - the parading of anecdote as if it were fact.

I'm not anti-helmet. I'm pro-evidence.
 
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