Why is cycle navigation so complicated?

[cougie uk]

Did you spend a bit of time adjusting the height or angle of saddle or handlebars to get a comfortable fit?
Pretty much the same thing as setting up a GPS device.

Do you clean your chain/drivetrain after a mucky day or is that too faffy by far?
Brakes? Tyre pressures? Too faffy to adjust them?
What about dressing for the weather? More faff?

It's been explained why a bike GPS doesn't work like a car.
You have been given examples of what will work just to get you home.

Many people have given long and detailed answers to your queries - must be too "faffy" to acknowledge that?

I travelled for years without using GPS, then started using Osmand before eventually getting a dedicated unit.
What can be done with a phone or unit these days is way beyond just plotting a route.
I can record my favourite places, roads to avoid, services and see elevation profiles - something that never interested me before but is essential now.
I have a record of every ride that I can fill out with photos, notes and comments. A great way to relive great days. That record is also useful for maintenance.
I can share my routes with others and "borrow" those of others.
I have no.interest in performance data but that is there if I wanted it too.

Having a GPS has reduced a a lot of stress and made the world bigger. Big places are no longer intimidating. Finding a specific address is easy peasy. Finding an alternate route when the one I'm on isn't to my taste is straightforward.
It might seem counter intuitive but understanding a mapping app like Osmand or having a GPS device actually opened up more places and gave me more freedom while giving me more confidence to explore.

Following your nose, paper maps, phone maps or a GPS - they're all good. But asking questions and then rubbishing the answers - not so good.

It's definitely a lot easier for me now to plan longer routes using GPS and tech.

In the past it was just take an OS map with you.


Now I can spend 10 mins checking the options out and using street view to see what the roads are like before choosing to use or ignore them. I enjoy planning routes - I do this early in the week for the weekend ride and then by the time I get to ride I've forgotten the route so it's a surprise to me !

 

[HobbesOnTour]

It's definitely a lot easier for me now to plan longer routes using GPS and tech.

In the past it was just take an OS map with you.


Now I can spend 10 mins checking the options out and using street view to see what the roads are like before choosing to use or ignore them. I enjoy planning routes - I do this early in the week for the weekend ride and then by the time I get to ride I've forgotten the route so it's a surprise to me !

I'm probably the opposite
I can create a route and set up the GPS in less than a minute then I head off and find what I find

It's like a lot of things - the more we do the better we get at it.

Given that I'm currently heading into the unknown a huge factor for me is to trust whatever planner I'm using. For me the most trustworthy has proven to be Cycle.Travel. No planner is perfect but it's the most reliable. At home its "suggest a ride" feature is excellent.

Previously, I'd often create several routes to the same destination then follow one (or none!) of them until daylight or weather dictated that I get my ass in gear. Then it was simply a case of picking the route closest to me and following that.

At the end of the day it matters not a whit what we use (or don't use) so long as we get out and enjoy ourselves.

 

[cougie uk]

@Sloth how far are these routes that you're struggling with?

 

[Jameshow]

Did you spend a bit of time adjusting the height or angle of saddle or handlebars to get a comfortable fit?
Pretty much the same thing as setting up a GPS device.

Do you clean your chain/drivetrain after a mucky day or is that too faffy by far?
Brakes? Tyre pressures? Too faffy to adjust them?
What about dressing for the weather? More faff?

It's been explained why a bike GPS doesn't work like a car.
You have been given examples of what will work just to get you home.

Many people have given long and detailed answers to your queries - must be too "faffy" to acknowledge that?

I travelled for years without using GPS, then started using Osmand before eventually getting a dedicated unit.
What can be done with a phone or unit these days is way beyond just plotting a route.
I can record my favourite places, roads to avoid, services and see elevation profiles - something that never interested me before but is essential now.
I have a record of every ride that I can fill out with photos, notes and comments. A great way to relive great days. That record is also useful for maintenance.
I can share my routes with others and "borrow" those of others.
I have no.interest in performance data but that is there if I wanted it too.

Having a GPS has reduced a a lot of stress and made the world bigger. Big places are no longer intimidating. Finding a specific address is easy peasy. Finding an alternate route when the one I'm on isn't to my taste is straightforward.
It might seem counter intuitive but understanding a mapping app like Osmand or having a GPS device actually opened up more places and gave me more freedom while giving me more confidence to explore.

Following your nose, paper maps, phone maps or a GPS - they're all good. But asking questions and then rubbishing the answers - not so good.

But you and others have rubbished the question....

Which is why Can't we have a GPS that takes up from A to B without having to jump through so many hoops to get there!

I had such a satnav 10 years ago in my delivery van. Tech gas come on leaps and bounds in that time, so is it to much to ask for a bike satnav that gets me from A to B without having to upload off a phone etc.

It might suit you if your a world traveller whose life is on the bike. But for those who want to get out on an evening or weekend without having to upload routes a simple GPS bike nav is all we ask for.

I have enough to do maintaining the bike, making sure lights are charged that I don't want to have to go about downloading uploading routes etc!!

 

[Mike_P]

As for Wahoo better than Garmin. That’s much of a muchness now with both manufacturers having models where you can easily manage gps settings and routes via a phone app.

Wahoos app tweaks settings on the device, Garmins does not, that is where Wahoos score.

 

[HobbesOnTour]

But you and others have rubbished the question....

Which is why Can't we have a GPS that takes up from A to B without having to jump through so many hoops to get there!

I had such a satnav 10 years ago in my delivery van. Tech gas come on leaps and bounds in that time, so is it to much to ask for a bike satnav that gets me from A to B without having to upload off a phone etc.

It might suit you if your a world traveller whose life is on the bike. But for those who want to get out on an evening or weekend without having to upload routes a simple GPS bike nav is all we ask for.

I have enough to do maintaining the bike, making sure lights are charged that I don't want to have to go about downloading uploading routes etc!!

I have not rubbished the question.
I answered it in some detail.

It has been explained.
The size of the unit, the need for a battery, the limited processing power for the price people will pay and the important fact that no two cyclists will agree on the "best" route.
There is also the marketing to consider. Most people who buy a unit are going to want to record a whole lot of performance data. A simple, navigation only device is probably (or at least until recreational cyclists increase in numbers) not commercially viable.
Remember too that E bikes are a fast growing segment and most (I believe) already come with built in computers.

The Beeline (thanks @Hebe ) will do exactly as the OP asked. Most GPS devices have the facility now to route to start or to a set destination (home).
It's the quality of those routes that is the issue.

As for jumping through hoops? I can create a route on my phone on the side of the road almost as quickly as I can take a photo on the same phone.

As I tried to explain what I have gained from having access to a vast amount of information on my phone far, far exceeds any "jumping through hoops" I may have to do to utilise it.
Your mileage may vary.

 

[chriswoody]

But you and others have rubbished the question....

Which is why Can't we have a GPS that takes up from A to B without having to jump through so many hoops to get there!

I had such a satnav 10 years ago in my delivery van. Tech gas come on leaps and bounds in that time, so is it to much to ask for a bike satnav that gets me from A to B without having to upload off a phone etc.

It might suit you if your a world traveller whose life is on the bike. But for those who want to get out on an evening or weekend without having to upload routes a simple GPS bike nav is all we ask for.

I have enough to do maintaining the bike, making sure lights are charged that I don't want to have to go about downloading uploading routes etc!!

According to DC Rainmaker his review of the Edge 530, suggests that you can select a point on the map and the unit will calculate a route to it. I know that the newer Edge units use Open Street Maps, as the base map and in Garmin's case, this is overlaid with heatmap data from other Garmin users, which I presume will mean it will err towards more cycle friendly routes in it's choices. I use a 15 year old Edge 605 unit, so I can't testify to how good the routing is on the new units, however, I do use Open Street Maps on my unit and I find them to be super detailed and accurate. Sadly I don't have OS quality maps in Germany, so for the kind of riding I do, I have to rely on digital maps on a GPS unit. When my 605 finally dies, I will more than likely get an Edge 530 to replace it.

I spent nearly twenty years working in the Outdoor education sector in the UK as well as being a keen outdoor sports person from Sea Kayaking to Winter Mountaineering and one of the joys for me was spending hours pouring over maps plotting new and exciting adventures. I still have a bookshelf full of maps of all kinds at home. For me, all that's changed is I now pour over maps online and create routes using RWGPS, which I then download and swap over to the GPS in a matter of moments, it really is no different to how I used to do it. Out on the trail I generally let the GPS guide me rather than follow the map, it means I can relax and just enjoy the flow of the ride.

One point of note though, is whilst the Edge 530 and others, do seem to do routing from point A to B, they will not be able to do the meandering circular routes that cyclists like to favour, but then, my car GPS also doesn't have the option to create"a meandering circular route that avoids horrible roads and has a good cafe in the middle" . It is also a darn awkward thing and often won't recognise most of the addresses I plug into it and generally is a hell of a lot more buggy than my old Garmin 605.

 

[Dogtrousers]

But you and others have rubbished the question....

Which is why Can't we have a GPS that takes up from A to B without having to jump through so many hoops to get there!

I had such a satnav 10 years ago in my delivery van. Tech gas come on leaps and bounds in that time, so is it to much to ask for a bike satnav that gets me from A to B without having to upload off a phone etc.

It might suit you if your a world traveller whose life is on the bike. But for those who want to get out on an evening or weekend without having to upload routes a simple GPS bike nav is all we ask for.

I have enough to do maintaining the bike, making sure lights are charged that I don't want to have to go about downloading uploading routes etc!!

We can and we do have things that do A to B navigation.

A couple of examples that I know about:

• A GPS. Garmin Edge 530*. Menu > Navigation > Browse Map for destination (or Select saved location) > Press Go. Reportedly it's even easier with other devices like Wahoos.
• An app: RideWithGPS. Click Tooks. Choose route planner. Tap destination on the map. Create a route to it. Save route. Click Navigate. Follow the route. I bet it's probably also possible with Strava, Komoot and a load of other apps.
• Basic phone app: Google maps. Click destination. Click Directions. I sometimes use google maps on my phone with voice prompts and the volume turned up if I get a bit lost and need to get to a particular location. I find this particularly useful in towns. Probably possible on iPhones too.

Now, you may not like the route that it gives you. The roads may be too busy, or maybe the cycle paths may be muddy and overgrown or it may make you go up a hill or fails to take you past your Auntie's house. But this is what you get when you hand planning over to an algorithm. I don't complain when my car satnav takes me up the A12 that it's an incredibly ugly road.

The alternative is to design nice routes yourself or look at a map. But that's "too much faff" apparently.

* I have an Edge 530, but I've never actually used this feature in anger, because I prefer to ride nice routes that I have devised myself, either as planned routes, or in my head. I've seen that some new GPS units will even propose loops for you.

 

[MichaelW2]

On local CTC group rides, a lot of local information you pick up concerns route pinch points: the bits you just have to ride if you are heading in that general direction. A good, cycle friendly pinchpoint is the key to successful route planning. Sustrans make use of thislocal knowledge for their routes. How would you identify and incorporate them into navigation software?

 

[freiston]

We can and we do have things that do A to B navigation.

A couple of examples that I know about:

• A GPS. Garmin Edge 530*. Menu > Navigation > Browse Map for destination (or Select saved location) > Press Go. Reportedly it's even easier with other devices like Wahoos.

I have the Edge 530 too and had forgotten about this function and have not used it though I'm sure that I did look at it when I first got the unit. I am glad that you reminded me of it and I'm sure it could prove very useful getting me out of a pickle.

Now, you may not like the route that it gives you. The roads may be too busy, or maybe the cycle paths may be muddy and overgrown or it may make you go up a hill or fails to take you past your Auntie's house. But this is what you get when you hand planning over to an algorithm. I don't complain when my car satnav takes me up the A12 that it's an incredibly ugly road.

This is the crux of the issue with cycle GPS computers and on-the-fly point-to-point navigation. There are roads near me that I avoid at all costs on the bike but I know that they get a lot of recreational/sport cycle traffic and I know that my routes would be a lot simpler and I could get further away from home if I used them. My preferred route home from a nearby pub is 18 miles but even cycle.travel gives me an 11 mile route which is a bit too fast and busy for my liking. Before I got the Garmin and when I first started using Osmand on the phone, it plotted a route that would have taken over a stile and down a very muddy footpath across a field.

 

[Dogtrousers]

This is the crux of the issue with cycle GPS computers and on-the-fly point-to-point navigation. There are roads near me that I avoid at all costs on the bike but I know that they get a lot of recreational/sport cycle traffic and I know that my routes would be a lot simpler and I could get further away from home if I used them. My preferred route home from a nearby pub is 18 miles but even cycle.travel gives me an 11 mile route which is a bit too fast and busy for my liking. Before I got the Garmin and when I first started using Osmand on the phone, it plotted a route that would have taken over a stile and down a very muddy footpath across a field.

Indeed, and it's a problem that car satnavs don't have. I don't expect to enjoy driving to Scunthorpe or wherever, I just want to get there.

But "cyclists" are such a broad church that some don't mind bombing dual busy main roads, and detest lumpy cycle paths, whereas others balk at a short section of fast-ish B road and want to be off-road as much as possible. Or some don't mind a few hundred metres of muddy path/A road but no more than that, others might draw the line at a mile. Indeed, I change during the day - I avoid busy roundabouts late in my rides in the afternoon when I'm going to be tired but don't mind them early in the morning when the traffic is light and my legs are good.

 

[Solocle]

Indeed, and it's a problem that car satnavs don't have. I don't expect to enjoy driving to Scunthorpe or wherever, I just want to get there.

But "cyclists" are such a broad church that some don't mind bombing dual busy main roads, and detest lumpy cycle paths, whereas others balk at a short section of fast-ish B road and want to be off-road as much as possible. Or some don't mind a few hundred metres of muddy path/A road but no more than that, others might draw the line at a mile. Indeed, I change during the day - I avoid busy roundabouts late in my rides in the afternoon when I'm going to be tired but don't mind them early in the morning when the traffic is light and my legs are good.

And I don't necessarily mind big trunk dual carriageways at 3am!

Route choice on a bike is a whole load of compromises, it's a far more complex affair than car routing.

In the car I will often try to stick to main roads, even if it adds a little time, but that's easy...

 

[HobbesOnTour]

Before I got the Garmin and when I first started using Osmand on the phone, it plotted a route that would have taken over a stile and down a very muddy footpath across a field.

Ah, Osmand

I use Osmand a lot, but rarely to plan a bike route for reasons like you have outlined here.
However, with tweaking of preferences the car options are not too bad for a bike.
One great advantage of Osmand is that you can select that stile or muddy field and avoid for ever more.

I ❤️ that Osmand has so many POIs that I can save (highlight), as well as making my own.
Despite its sometimes dodgy bike routing it has been my backup navigator for years. It works offline and in an emergency (or impending storm) will point me to where I need to get to.

It's far from easy to master but well worth the effort in my view.

How would you identify and incorporate them into navigation software?

With CycleTravel it's easy to post on the site's own forum and the designer (a member of this parish) can often accommodate.

The process can also be helped by becoming a contributor to Open Street Mapping and correcting incorrect details.

 

[Ming the Merciless]

Wahoos app tweaks settings on the device, Garmins does not, that is where Wahoos score.

Not true for newer Garmin models. Perhaps you should not assume what is true for your Garmin model is true for all Garmin models.

 

[mustang1]

But when the batteries go flat and you don't know where you are a paper map comes in to its own.

But likewise when the rain has soaked a paper map, the GPS comes into its own?