Why do my spokes keep breaking? - Bike wheel science.

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Location
Loch side.
I doubt Brandt broke spokes merely by squeezing pairs of spokes together with his hands, although spokes were not as good back in the day. However, some people also like to torture the spokes by wedging an old crank into the crossings and using it as a lever, and I suppose that could break a spoke if you have no feel for this kind of thing.

We used the crank method and I can attest that you cannot break a spoke using that method. Reason is that the crank bottoms out against adjacent spokes and prevents over-extension. However, you can easily pop a rim that way. Some rims are too weak to stress-relieve the spokes. Notably those from Enve. Therefore, Enve wheels break spokes all the time.
 

rogerzilla

Legendary Member
Yes, I use the crank method too and have never had a problem. I also use the squeezing method (with leather gloves) but only at the end of the process.
 
Location
Loch side.
Yes, I use the crank method too and have never had a problem. I also use the squeezing method (with leather gloves) but only at the end of the process.
I assume you do the latter in order to correct the spoke arrival angle at the nipple. I've given up on rims that don't allow the nipple to naturally follow the line of the spoke.
 

rogerzilla

Legendary Member
I use Sapim Polyax nipples for large flange hubs and other situations (tiny Brompton wheels) that give a bad spoke/rim angle. Otherwise, yes, the main thing is to get a decent kink where the spoke exits the nipple rather than a soft bend, and it takes quite a bit of force to do this.
 

Salar

A fish out of water
Location
Gorllewin Cymru
From what I can see, he (@Salar) made no assumptions which were either proven right or wrong. I think the "support means contact or at the very least, within the LAZ. I'll let him comment on his own drawing.

Correct @Yellow Saddle the "supports" are the load affected zone. As you can understand I had to simulate the LAZ and have used engineering terminology.

Without any "support" the wheel would be in free fall. I could have input many "supports" over the LAZ and introduced spring supports etc, but the final result is the same.

Which is, as shown by Yellow Saddles sketch and my quick analysis that only the spokes in the LAZ have their tension reduced. Your mind might tell you otherwise, but my conclusions agree with Yellow Saddle.
 

Ajax Bay

Guru
Location
East Devon
On a dished rear wheel the LH and RH spokes are at marked different tensions (to the opposite side) (600N and 1000N say). Since the the reduction in tension of the lower spokes (assume LAZ means 'Load Affected Zone'?) is dependent on rim displacement (<20 microns for a 500N load on a 622 wheel) does that mean that the reduction in tension is less in RH spokes than in LH spokes?
 

Ming the Merciless

There is no mercy
Location
Inside my skull
Correct @Yellow Saddle the "supports" are the load affected zone. As you can understand I had to simulate the LAZ and have used engineering terminology.

Without any "support" the wheel would be in free fall. I could have input many "supports" over the LAZ and introduced spring supports etc, but the final result is the same.

Which is, as shown by Yellow Saddles sketch and my quick analysis that only the spokes in the LAZ have their tension reduced. Your mind might tell you otherwise, but my conclusions agree with Yellow Saddle.

Can you explain what you mean by support? As you know the spokes in the "load affected zone" are pulling the hub towards the rim just like all the other spokes in the wheel.
 
Location
Loch side.
On a dished rear wheel the LH and RH spokes are at marked different tensions (to the opposite side) (600N and 1000N say). Since the the reduction in tension of the lower spokes (assume LAZ means 'Load Affected Zone'?) is dependent on rim displacement (<20 microns for a 500N load on a 622 wheel) does that mean that the reduction in tension is less in RH spokes than in LH spokes?

No, they all lose equal tension.
 

Ming the Merciless

There is no mercy
Location
Inside my skull
On a dished rear wheel the LH and RH spokes are at marked different tensions (to the opposite side) (600N and 1000N say). Since the the reduction in tension of the lower spokes (assume LAZ means 'Load Affected Zone'?) is dependent on rim displacement (<20 microns for a 500N load on a 622 wheel) does that mean that the reduction in tension is less in RH spokes than in LH spokes?

See Hooke's law.

Hooke's law is a law of physics that states that the force (F) needed to extend or compress a spring by some distance x scales linearly with respect to that distance. (Wikipedia)
 

Pat "5mph"

A kilogrammicaly challenged woman
Moderator
Location
Glasgow
Mod Note:
We have deleted some of the excellent banter on this thread, sorry about that.
This was to streamline the information for future readers.
This thread will now be pinned on top of the mechanic board.
Thank you to all contributors for taking the time to fully illustrate this interesting topic.
 

Ajax Bay

Guru
Location
East Devon
Jobst Brandt also talked about the wheel "standing" on its lowest spokes (equating a reduction in tension with compression). It's annoyed a lot of people over the years. He was correct but his choice of words didn't help much.
I enjoyed a hilly 200 on Thursday and, inter alia, thought about wheels 'standing' on their spokes during the 100,000 odd revolutions.
From Job Brandt's book 'the Bicycle Wheel':
Page 10
"THE WHEEL STANDS ON ITS [BOTTOM] SPOKES
"Of course the wheel is not supported by the bottom spokes only. Without the rest of the spokes, the bottom ones would have no tension. Standing, in this case,means that the spokes at the bottom are the ones that change stress; they are being shortened and respond structurally as rigid columns. They are rigid as long as they remain tensioned."
If the term "standing" is taken to mean 'effecting a change in stress which shortens them (from their static tensioned state)' then fine - odd use of 'standing'.
If Brandt is merely using the 'standing' idea as a medium for helping people realise that wheels don't 'hang' from the top spokes (their tension remains essentially the same as when the wheel is unloaded), that's useful if it achieves the aim without introducing confusion.
I have difficulty with the idea that the tensioned spokes "respond structurally as [if they were] rigid columns" unless what Brandt means is that under decreased stress they shorten as a rigid column would. But that doesn't mean the bottom spokes are 'rigid columns'. And for the idea that a wheel "stands on its bottom spokes" those supports need to be rigid - they aren't: they're thin, flexible wire spokes.
Would one say that tensioned elastic bands "respond structurally as rigid columns" or describe them as "rigid as long as they remain tensioned"?
 
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Ajax Bay

Guru
Location
East Devon
Henry - :welcome::bicycle:
Uneven tightening might lead to mechanical fatigue causing the spokes to break. There is a sharp rise in the tension on hitting a bump, leading to breaking of the spokes.
Please could you explain why (even significantly) uneven tension might increase the likelihood of a spoke failing through fatigue.
Please could you elaborate on the effect of 'hitting a bump' on the tension of spokes in various positions (ie the ones at the bottom, the ones at the top). Will the ones at the bottom experience a "sharp rise in tension"? Will the ones at the top experience a "sharp rise in tension"? I assume you are suggesting that a "sharp rise in tension" in a spoke will cause it to part. Why? Spokes are pretty strong. Isn't the rim more likely to fail in such circumstance?
Various posts above, which you'll have read, try to articulate the physics to inform your answer.
 
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