Nothing yet from Hein?
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/verbruggen-says-armstrong-never-never-never-doped
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/verbruggen-says-armstrong-never-never-never-doped
The new improved Lance Armstrong discussion thread.*
- Thread starter mickle
- Start date
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DogTired
Über Member
- Location
- Floating on a sea of vimto.
Absolutely right - anyone who sticks with the even playing field notion should read more about the concept of passive doping.
albion
Guest
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/belgian-federation-forwards-bruyneel-charges-to-federal-prosecutor
The Belgian prosecutor may be looking into Bruyneel now.
The Belgian prosecutor may be looking into Bruyneel now.
laurence
Veteran
- Location
- in the aeroplane over the sea
2092292 said:
or who will meet with an 'accident'
This is from the Clinic but Bertagnolli's affidavit throws a few names into the mix...
...
* Bertagnolli started working with Ferrari in 2006, to have his thyroid problems treated.
* In July 2007, he went to St. Moritz to see Ferrari, who provided him with EPO, to be injected intravenously. Bertolini, Chicchi, Gasparotto and Pellizotti were with him in St. Moritz. Bertagnolli also recalls seeing Vinokourov and a group of other cyclists with Ferrari in Livigno, 2006.
* Bertagnolli started taking EPO in 2003, as advised by doctor Manelli, but in a very amateuristic way: Ferrari showed him how to use the product properly, in order not to test positive.
* A lot of Bertagnolli's Liquigas colleagues also went to Ferrari: he names Pellizotti, Chicchi, Gasparotto... and Kreuziger. He recalls seeing Popovych and Bileka at Ferrari's house and also mentions Morris Possoni.
* In 2007 Bertagnolli started with blood transfusions. Ferrari told him which refrigerator to buy to store his blood in the best way (at the right temperature). He stored his blood in plastic bags. He affirms he did not transfuse blood prior to working with Ferrari, and it scared him a lot.
* In 2008 Liquigas forbid its riders to work with Ferrari, so Bertagnolli only performed a single transfusion. In 2009 he did "some", in 2010 the transfusions were three.
* Bertagnolli met Ferrari at the end of 2010. Ferrari told him to "throw away all evidence", because he knew of the ongoing Popovych investigation. Ferrari told him to consider using polypropylene blood bags or "flebi di vetro" (an object in glass used for transfusions).
August 27, 2010: in an intercepted conversation in Ferrari's mobile camper, Ferrari and Bertagnolli talk about a number of riders and doping practices:
* Bertagnolli says "everybody is going a little slower"; Ferrari says it's because the riders don't take EPO anymore
* Bertagnolli says "Pozzovivo hurts us on the climbs"; Ferrari says it's because he weighs about 50 kg; Bertagnolli answers he never ever saw him do things like that, "he's all muscles"
* Ferrari says some riders are using AICAR, but the product can be detected and it has to be imported
* Bertagnolli says the product comes from Slovenia; he names Grega Bole and Spilak as possible users, and also Chiarini
* Ferrari thinks it's madness to use AICAR because the molecule is easily detectable
(some less important parts and an interruption in the registration)
* Bertagnolli thinks "for Scarponi it's important to see how the Petacchi case will pan out"
* Ferrari responds Petacchi is in trouble although Bernucci took all of the blame
* Bertagnolli thinks it's incredible some riders still go to Manelli (the first doping doctor Bertagnolli himself consulted): Astarloa, Bernucci, Celestino and Honchar were some of his clients, and they all tested positive
* Ferrari asserts the Mapei Lab is a joke and the tests there don't prove anything
* Retacrit is another detectable EPO molecule; Maccanti and Biondo have been found positive for NESP after using Retacrit and thus, Ferrari thinks it's a molecule for "suicidal fools"; he wonders why the testers don't always detect it
Another conversation, September 28, 2010 (due to technical problems the Italian police only recorded the first 30 minutes of the conversation):
* Ferrari shows he's better at interpreting blood data than the UCI
* Ferrari is "obsessively monitoring" the blood data of his clients
Some pages seem to be missing here, or I didn't read the document too well.
December 1, 2010, another conversation:
* Ferrari asks Bertagnolli which blood bags he used, Contador might have used bags in PVC, Bertagnolli has been using polypropylene bags which are not detectable, so he's not in trouble
* some stuff about blood transfusions, no details
* riders who want to dope can't go to Teide anymore because the place is "bruciata" - monitored and known by the antidoping authorities
* Ferrari speculates someone in the lab might have spiked Contador's blood with clenbuterol
* Bertagnolli asks if Contador might have used Actovegin, but Ferrari says no; "Actovegin is made of calf's blood, normally they don't use clen for that"
...
* Bertagnolli started working with Ferrari in 2006, to have his thyroid problems treated.
* In July 2007, he went to St. Moritz to see Ferrari, who provided him with EPO, to be injected intravenously. Bertolini, Chicchi, Gasparotto and Pellizotti were with him in St. Moritz. Bertagnolli also recalls seeing Vinokourov and a group of other cyclists with Ferrari in Livigno, 2006.
* Bertagnolli started taking EPO in 2003, as advised by doctor Manelli, but in a very amateuristic way: Ferrari showed him how to use the product properly, in order not to test positive.
* A lot of Bertagnolli's Liquigas colleagues also went to Ferrari: he names Pellizotti, Chicchi, Gasparotto... and Kreuziger. He recalls seeing Popovych and Bileka at Ferrari's house and also mentions Morris Possoni.
* In 2007 Bertagnolli started with blood transfusions. Ferrari told him which refrigerator to buy to store his blood in the best way (at the right temperature). He stored his blood in plastic bags. He affirms he did not transfuse blood prior to working with Ferrari, and it scared him a lot.
* In 2008 Liquigas forbid its riders to work with Ferrari, so Bertagnolli only performed a single transfusion. In 2009 he did "some", in 2010 the transfusions were three.
* Bertagnolli met Ferrari at the end of 2010. Ferrari told him to "throw away all evidence", because he knew of the ongoing Popovych investigation. Ferrari told him to consider using polypropylene blood bags or "flebi di vetro" (an object in glass used for transfusions).
August 27, 2010: in an intercepted conversation in Ferrari's mobile camper, Ferrari and Bertagnolli talk about a number of riders and doping practices:
* Bertagnolli says "everybody is going a little slower"; Ferrari says it's because the riders don't take EPO anymore
* Bertagnolli says "Pozzovivo hurts us on the climbs"; Ferrari says it's because he weighs about 50 kg; Bertagnolli answers he never ever saw him do things like that, "he's all muscles"
* Ferrari says some riders are using AICAR, but the product can be detected and it has to be imported
* Bertagnolli says the product comes from Slovenia; he names Grega Bole and Spilak as possible users, and also Chiarini
* Ferrari thinks it's madness to use AICAR because the molecule is easily detectable
(some less important parts and an interruption in the registration)
* Bertagnolli thinks "for Scarponi it's important to see how the Petacchi case will pan out"
* Ferrari responds Petacchi is in trouble although Bernucci took all of the blame
* Bertagnolli thinks it's incredible some riders still go to Manelli (the first doping doctor Bertagnolli himself consulted): Astarloa, Bernucci, Celestino and Honchar were some of his clients, and they all tested positive
* Ferrari asserts the Mapei Lab is a joke and the tests there don't prove anything
* Retacrit is another detectable EPO molecule; Maccanti and Biondo have been found positive for NESP after using Retacrit and thus, Ferrari thinks it's a molecule for "suicidal fools"; he wonders why the testers don't always detect it
Another conversation, September 28, 2010 (due to technical problems the Italian police only recorded the first 30 minutes of the conversation):
* Ferrari shows he's better at interpreting blood data than the UCI
* Ferrari is "obsessively monitoring" the blood data of his clients
Some pages seem to be missing here, or I didn't read the document too well.
December 1, 2010, another conversation:
* Ferrari asks Bertagnolli which blood bags he used, Contador might have used bags in PVC, Bertagnolli has been using polypropylene bags which are not detectable, so he's not in trouble
* some stuff about blood transfusions, no details
* riders who want to dope can't go to Teide anymore because the place is "bruciata" - monitored and known by the antidoping authorities
* Ferrari speculates someone in the lab might have spiked Contador's blood with clenbuterol
* Bertagnolli asks if Contador might have used Actovegin, but Ferrari says no; "Actovegin is made of calf's blood, normally they don't use clen for that"
Flying_Monkey
Recyclist
- Location
- Odawa
If anyone believes the level playing field myth, they should read the rider reactions here. Cyclists who were as good, as talented, as hard-working, as those involved in this (and other) doping schemes, were relegated to being also-rans. Sure, many of those who got to the top of the sport during this period were cheating. But that's the point. They were at the top. There were many who were not involved who were effectively 'just taking part'. And then, there were those who were doping but were haphazard, unscientific, unsystematic. I'm sorry but there's no way I can believe any more that Lance Armstrong was just a better athlete and was taking drugs like all the rest. He was so systematic about it, this was a whole different level, even from many others who were doping, let alone all those hundreds of riders who lost their chance at success because they chose not to dope.
Hont
Guru
- Location
- Bromsgrove
Not many surprises there.
I think Dowsett is entitled to his view. Pro cyclists appreciate the suffering that their fellows have to put themselves through. And, let's face it, LeMond and Armstrong bought a whole lot of money in to the sport.
Hont
Guru
- Location
- Bromsgrove
I've just asked the Swiss government, via their website, if they are going to start an investigation into corruption in the UCI.
Crosstrailer
Well-Known Member
I've just asked the Swiss government, via their website, if they are going to start an investigation into corruption in the UCI.
Can you ask them to have a look at FIFA and that cockwand Sepp Blatter as well.
Thanks
