The new improved Lance Armstrong discussion thread.*

[Doseone]

I really bought in to the whole LA myth when he was winning his tours. I suppose nothing can take away the enjoyment I got from watching at the time 'cos it was sport at its best, the plucky American cancer survivor against the evil cheating East German, and the Evil Cheating Kazakh. Now it turns out it was an Evil cheating American too.

I haven't followed every twist and turn and all the technicalities of the case, but any small shred of respect I had left for the man has gone and I hope they throw the whole book at him.

Fortunately my Discovery Channel shirt is too small for me these days (must have shrunk in the wash) but I'm going to have to stick with my Lone Star Giro helmet 'cos its a good helmet, but I might try and take the stickers off.

 

[yello]

I haven't followed every twist and turn and all the technicalities of the case, but any small shred of respect I had left for the man has gone and I hope they throw the whole book at him.

Listening to BBC 5, it seems you are not alone.

 

[Yogi49]

Well there goes the reason I got into cycling.

I read Armstrong's It's Not About The Bike about a month before getting my first road bike as I found it a real inspiration. And if I'm honest I feel a bit cheated, that this book that got me off my ass wasn't as non-fiction as I thought it was!

Shame...

 

[Doseone]

Listening to BBC 5, it seems you are not alone.

I'm sure. I think he's finished in every respect now.

 

[ColinJ]

Radio 5 is very very good right now, ex editor of Cycling News working a knife into Sean Yates as I speak - brilliant.

I'll try and listen to it on iPlayer later!

 

[DogTired]

So now we await:-

- The first litigation to recover monies given to him
- The re-start of the Federal investigation in some form via the Dept. of Justice
- The quiet fading of Armstrong sponsors
- The doo to hit the fan at the UCI

Anything else?

- First thing for me is the UCI have to ratify the contents for LA to officially 'lose' his TdF titles....
- LA to admit tearfully his doping while saying he realised the power of drugs as they saved his life when he had cancer and he wanted to be an inspiration to fellow survivors so just carried on...
- Business as usual! Elected as President in 10 years time.
- Discovers he's taken so many drugs, he is, in effect, now immortal.
- Manages to jump on each of the 6 billion graves of the people who branded him a drugs cheat.

 

[Red Light]

I think the reason that people are starting to think it's a myth that widespread doping lead to an even playing field is because USPS obtained exclusivity from some of the top doctors. In other words, their drugs were better and more plentiful than their opponents. In fact, the opening statement from USADA says something along those lines, they hint that doping was widespread amongst many teams, but it was the systematic and controlling manner in which USPS managed doping that 'unevened' the playing field.

Do they know that was not the case in the other teams. How did what happened in USPS compare for example with what happened in Festina?

But it will always be the case that the best funded teams will have an advantage. Wiggins clearly had a big advantage this year because of the quality and number of team members around him which having money allowed Sky to assemble. So on the crucial climbs he was always well covered, Froome's little breakaways excepted, while Evans struggled often on his own. You could say (and many have) that it was the systematic and controlling manner in which Sky managed the peleton that led to Wiggin's win.

 

[laurence]

to me it's the bullying and arrogance of the man... i disliked him for that. the doping, well, it was obvious the more time went on - his partnership with Dr Ferrari was a BIG clue. the fact he laughed after bullying Simeoni on the road, in front of the press, shows how he thought he was above the law. he used the press to his advantage and when things showed any sign of going wrong he played the cancer card and shouted witch-hunt

for me, the report just ties up the threads. i remember the story of him keeping testers waiting when they arrived at his house and how he laughed it off in the press and berated the testers.

he was a nasty man before he had cancer. nothing changed

 

[Red Light]

This is the passage from USADA I was talking about

"The USPS Team doping conspiracy was professionally designed to groom and pressure athletes to use dangerous drugs, to evade detection, to ensure its secrecy and ultimately gain an unfair competitive advantage through superior doping practices"

I haven't read all the athlete depositions yet but it seems clear that most of them were already doping when they arrived at USPS. So I can see how you can groom them to do it better by giving them access to better doctors but how do you pressure them to do what they were already doing?

 

[totallyfixed]

I'll try and listen to it on iPlayer later!

Stick with it as there is a break from 11ish until 23 mins past when it starts again. Boy there are some people on this show who are either naive and thick with it; have ostriches for parents; deceiving themselves because they can't understand how this could happen; or they are lying and I know which one I am going for .

 

[dodgy]

Do they know that was not the case in the other teams. How did what happened in USPS compare for example with what happened in Festina?

But it will always be the case that the best funded teams will have an advantage. Wiggins clearly had a big advantage this year because of the quality and number of team members around him which having money allowed Sky to assemble. So on the crucial climbs he was always well covered, Froome's little breakaways excepted, while Evans struggled often on his own. You could say (and many have) that it was the systematic and controlling manner in which Sky managed the peleton that led to Wiggin's win.

I'm missing your point, I think.

 

[yello]

I'd like to think Armstrong will confess, as I do actually think that'd be the best thing for him to do,but I'm not convinced we'll see it. I think he'll choose the more torturous route.

 

[Red Light]

I'm missing your point, I think.

My point is its never a level playing field - money buys advantage whether its by funding better training, better team mates, better equipment, better coaches...... or better doctors. Someone who can afford to train at high altitude and sleep in a hypobaric room will have an advantage, for similar reasons to having blood transfusions or EPO, over those who cannot afford to. One is exogenous manipulation of the blood and the other endogenous. One is legal, one isn't. Both are made possible by access to money.

And how does the organisation of doping that went on in USPS compare with the organised doping that went on in Festina (other than the obvious one that Festina's courier got caught). Do we know which one is worse? Did USADA investigate Festina and other teams before making their pronouncement that USPS was the worst?

 

[MacB]

What I don't want to see is some schmalzy US public apology along the lines of Tigger Woods, with the waterworks in full flow.

 

[smutchin]

Do they know that was not the case in the other teams. How did what happened in USPS compare for example with what happened in Festina?

I've been wondering about this myself. Presumably it's a question of scale - USPS had a much bigger budget than Festina. In the same way that Sky have a much bigger budget than Garmin so can apparently achieve more using the same methods.

We know all about Gewiss-Ballan, of course, but there are other teams about which we may have strong suspicions, but they've yet to be investigated to the same degree (possibly because they fall outside the USADA's jurisdiction). I imagine a certain large Spaniard is feeling a little exposed right now.

d.