The CycleChat Helmet Debate Thread

[matticus]

[ https://www.theguardian.com/world/a...sts-urged-to-wear-helmets-as-road-deaths-rise ]

What a terrible one-sided article. No balance in the Guardian?

Ironically, the recent DM article (about the Ramsay incident/hype) was pretty well balanced indeed (although I now have very low standards for press reporting of bike stuff, so feel free to disagree!!!) https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/...ry-debate-helmet-cycling-safer-dangerous.html

(I thought the Guardian thing was less balanced, overall. And I now know that "Bart Groothuijze, who runs the Castodian foundation promoting safer motorbiking" is a curkwumble.

hopefully I've found the right Dutch word there ...

 

[derrick]

but only focusing on one side of as debate makes it a wholly biased article... which isn't useful for a reader hoping to learn something.

Some people never learn.

 

[Alex321]

Holy thread revival Batman.

Every time helmets come up in other threads, we are told to take it to this one. Not sure why this one has gone unused for so long.

 

[icowden]

How can we tell? It would be more persuasive if they actually said that - but how often do helmet evangelists acknowledge both sides?

I don't think you are ever going to persuade people who somehow think protecting your head is a bad idea, that is actually a good idea. This thread is proof of that. it doesn't matter how man people you wheel out saying "the helmet saved me from a much worse injury", someone will make the argument that they might have magically not banged their head had they not strapped a bag of sugar to the top, or that the vast size of the helmet made it inevitable.

Personally, I'll continue to wear one, as will my family, not least because a helmet has saved my BiL from much worse injury twice - although since the last one he has only used his bike trainer.

 

[MontyVeda]

Some people never learn.

They will if they're well informed. Biased journalism is not information, it's opinion.

 

[lazybloke]

I didn't read any further than the title of the road.cc article, because it had a moan about victim blaming.
I think this misses an important point, which is that often there is no-one else to blame.

Let me explain; I've come off my bike on numerous occasions, but only one of those was due to another person (a distracted driver). All the rest were entirely on me; either I was distracted, drunk, had misjudged the surface conditions, or on one spectacular occasion there was a foot slip or chain-drop resulting in my flying head-first into a deep ditch (with bike landing on top of me).

A side impact to my left knee by a Ford CMAX didn't make me want to wear a helmet. But all the other incidents had an effect on me - and more often than not I'll now wear gloves and helmet when cycling.
Similarly, whenever I'm suicidal enough to give my roller blades another attempt, I'll strap on the elbow/wrist protection.

It's not victim blaming if I'm the one being stupid. I see a lot of cyclists doing stupid things!

 

[raleighnut]

I didn't read any further than the title of the road.cc article, because it had a moan about victim blaming.
I think this misses an important point, which is that often there is no-one else to blame.

Let me explain; I've come off my bike on numerous occasions, but only one of those was due to another person (a distracted driver). All the rest were entirely on me; either I was distracted, drunk, had misjudged the surface conditions, or on one spectacular occasion there was a foot slip or chain-drop resulting in my flying head-first into a deep ditch (with bike landing on top of me).

A side impact to my left knee by a Ford CMAX didn't make me want to wear a helmet. But all the other incidents had an effect on me - and more often than not I'll now wear gloves and helmet when cycling.
Similarly, whenever I'm suicidal enough to give my roller blades another attempt, I'll strap on the elbow/wrist protection.

It's not victim blaming if I'm the one being stupid. I see a lot of cyclists doing stupid things!

I always wear gloves when cycling, too many years of picking grit out of my palms.

 

[mjr]

I don't think you are ever going to persuade people who somehow think protecting your head is a bad idea, that is actually a good idea. This thread is proof of that.

And it's also proof of some people stubbornly refusing to accept that the argument is that cycle helmets are crap things, not that protecting your head is a bad idea. Nobody is against protecting heads. If it was possible to get the protection without all the drawbacks, there wouldn't be much opposition.

it doesn't matter how man people you wheel out saying "the helmet saved me from a much worse injury", someone will make the argument that they might have magically not banged their head had they not strapped a bag of sugar to the top, or that the vast size of the helmet made it inevitable.

You'll more likely get the argument that it's another farking anecdote, completely understandable given the wonderful(!) tendency of helmets to spectacularly fail and self-justify/self-advertise, and contradicted by real data that shows head injury rates not correlating with helmet use rates.

The thing in the other recent thread about strapping weight to your head was that it's not nothing and it's a good distance from the pivot point, so helmet use can easily result in neck injuries, even if the user doesn't crash. It wasn't particularly related to that crash, although some speculate that adding weight and size to one's head may result in impacts being more likely, both due to simple physics (bigger thing means more chance of impact when spinning past) and due to defeating instinctive attempts to tuck one's head in.

Personally, I'll continue to wear one, as will my family, not least because a helmet has saved my BiL from much worse injury twice - although since the last one he has only used his bike trainer.

Sorry to read that. Has he considered some Bikeability level 3 sessions to get confidence to get back on the roads?

 

[mjr]

Let me explain; I've come off my bike on numerous occasions, but only one of those was due to another person (a distracted driver). All the rest were entirely on me; either I was distracted, drunk, had misjudged the surface conditions, or on one spectacular occasion there was a foot slip or chain-drop resulting in my flying head-first into a deep ditch (with bike landing on top of me). [...] It's not victim blaming if I'm the one being stupid. I see a lot of cyclists doing stupid things!

Is strapping on a hard hat in response to all those stupid mistakes just another mistake? It would seem far better to (in order) pay attention, not ride drunk, check the conditions more carefully or use kit (especially tyres) that cope with a wider range of conditions, and use pedals or maintain the chain/derailleur so feet don't slip and chain doesn't drop, or at least ride within yourself so that you've got a bailout besides a ditch.

It can be difficult to take the correct learning away from an incident, I know. I've had some good crashes over the years, but my head never hit the ground before I used a helmet. The last time I used a helmet, I was sliding down the road after hitting ice, which is why I wore the helmet (and partly why I suspect they may affect decision-making, as Ian Walker's famous study comparing it to a baseball hat also suggests). The bruises convinced me that a better response was to get studded tyres, not a new helmet.

 

[classic33]

It can be difficult to take the correct learning away from an incident, I know. I've had some good crashes over the years, but my head never hit the ground before I used a helmet. The last time I used a helmet, I was sliding down the road after hitting ice, which is why I wore the helmet (and partly why I suspect they may affect decision-making, as Ian Walker's famous study comparing it to a baseball hat also suggests). The bruises convinced me that a better response was to get studded tyres, not a new helmet.

Why then did your head hit the ground if you were wearing a helmet? Why does it appear that you've only had accidents whilst wearing one?
Parting company with the bike on ice is not a direct consequence of riding a bike whilst wearing a helmet. There's a much better chance it was down to not being aware of your surroundings/road conditions. Or not riding within your limits. Maybe you thought the helmet would somehow keep you and your bike from parting company. Not something a helmet is designed to do.

As you said, it can be hard to take away the correct learning, but o so much easier blame something other than yourself.

 

[icowden]

Sorry to read that. Has he considered some Bikeability level 3 sessions to get confidence to get back on the roads?

He's a very fast peloton type rider (25mph+), I think without the confidence to ride at peloton speeds again, he's rested the idea for a while.

 

[Rusty Nails]

How can we tell? It would be more persuasive if they actually said that - but how often do helmet evangelists acknowledge both sides?

"Why wouldn't you wear one?!?"
"There's no excuse!"
... are both comments I've read just in the last 48hours ...

 

[icowden]

You'll more likely get the argument that it's another farking anecdote, completely understandable given the wonderful(!) tendency of helmets to spectacularly fail and self-justify/self-advertise, and contradicted by real data that shows head injury rates not correlating with helmet use rates.

Another odd correlation is that doctors specialising in head and neck injuries really tend to encourage helmet use rather than discourage it. Must be some sort of conspiracy. If they were US Doctors I'd get it, but UK and European doctors don't make any money from advocating helmet use...

 

[Slick]

Every time helmets come up in other threads, we are told to take it to this one. Not sure why this one has gone unused for so long.

I suspect because after 9 years and nearly 400 pages very little can be added that hasn't already been discussed and maybe a tincy bt because not a single person has ever changed their mind because of what was written here.

 

[mjr]

Another odd correlation is that doctors specialising in head and neck injuries really tend to encourage helmet use rather than discourage it. Must be some sort of conspiracy. If they were US Doctors I'd get it, but UK and European doctors don't make any money from advocating helmet use...

Doctors specialising in head and neck injury are not taking a whole person view. Public health doctors would prefer more people cycling than increased helmet use among remaining riders. My heart doctors seem very happy with me riding more than I would if helmetted but it has been same time since I asked directly.