The CycleChat Helmet Debate Thread

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mjr

Comfy armchair to one person & a plank to the next
"The helmet split". Aaargh! The internet is full of photos of split helmets. Only thing is, when I look at them, I rarely see any evidence of crushing or compression. To reduce the impact forces, a helmet must crush, not split (simply put, energy is dissipated by the breaking of chemical bonds: crushing breaks many bonds while splitting - crack propagation - breaks few). Your split helmet quite likely failed to give much protection.
Given how much users seem to drop their helmets and generally smash them into things when not wearing them (including a recent fashion for hanging them from handlebars while riding on no-motor-vehicle routes and/or to/from helmet-forcing events, letting them swing about and bang into the bike), I suspect that many split helmets had small cracks in them long before they suffered an impact while worn. Has anyone tested helmets after a year or two of ownership by ordinary users?
 

Profpointy

Legendary Member
[QUOTE 4961194, member: 43827"] -snipped-


If someone said they were going to hit you on the head with a brick would you prefer the hit to be on your cycling helmet or your bare skull? Simple fact of the matter is......I would choose the helmet even though my skull is harder than the helmet.

-snipped-

t[/QUOTE]

Whilst that is fair enough in isolation remember there's a very similar experiment where someone misses your head by an inch. Try it wearing a helmet and it'll hurt a lot more ! And the harder the impact the more important a total miss will be.

A helmetted head is 1.5 or 2 x the size of a bare head (cross section area) so this is not a trivial point.

Of course, at the end of the day it seems better to look at real world stats rather than thought experiments. My reading of Australian results from a before and after is that things have if anything got worse post helmet compulsion. There may be other reasons but does seem indicative all the same
 
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For instance, a 200 g impulse for 2 milleseconds will not induce a life threatening brain injury, but a 100 g impulse over 6 ms will.
This interesting but not enlightening. If you are travelling at 14kph, and you stop in 2 msecs you will experience around 200g deceleration. But if you stop in 6 msec, you will only experience 60g of deceleration, which puts you further away from the life threatening injury area.

PMC3820257_DMM011320F2.png


To experience 100g over 6 msecs, you would have to be moving much faster, over 21kph.

Or am I misunderstanding you?
 

Ming the Merciless

There is no mercy
Location
Inside my skull
Maybe we need to mandate helmets in other areas first?

An extract from a study of the impact of helmet laws in Australia

"Despite the risk of dying from head injury per hour being similar for unhelmeted cyclists and motor vehicle occupants, cyclists alone have been required to wear head protection. Helmets for motor vehicle occupants are now being marketed and a mandatory helmet law for these road users has the potential to save 17 times as many people from death by head injury as a helmet law for cyclists without the adverse effects of discouraging a healthy and pollution free mode of transport."
 

Wobblers

Euthermic
Location
Minkowski Space
[QUOTE 4951598, member: 43827"]You like to live up to your tag line don't you?

Here are some pics of the helmet. I don't care whether my helmet split, crushed or compressed - it broke! I don't know whether the doctor I saw knows as much about biophysics as you, but he knew a lot about medicine and head injuries and more importantly, he was there looking at the injury, rather than pontificating about it on the internet.

I tried reading some of the stuff you suggested, in between going out to watch the end of the Tour, plus other bits of research and like most BF contributors I choose to put more emphasis on the bits that reinforce my gut feeling. For example some bloke called Mills said a helmet would reduce the lha to less than 200g in an impact with tarmac at an impact velocity of 6.6 ms. Now I haven't a clue what all that means but it sounds good to me so must be right!

I now realise how cavalier I have been over the years with the efficacy of equipment I have used. For example I never read the research evidence of the effectiveness of the condoms I used, or safety goggles in the workshop. Foolishly I saw the kite mark and just believed they worked, so must just have been lucky not to have had more kids, or lost an eye. I am grateful for your interest as I know you are just looking after my welfare, rather than trying to prove me wrong and you right.

Please read the last two paragraphs of my op. I am no helmet zealot.

View attachment 372793 View attachment 372794 [/QUOTE]

Thank you for starting off with the customary snide remark.

It in no way follows that being able to look after injuries gives a comanding insight as to how they are caused, or what engineering measures can be used to mitigate against them. Note that I said "engineering". Because how materials and structures behave when loaded to the point of failure is most definitely the realm of engineering, and materials science. Both skulls and helmets are structures and the response of both can only be understood using the usual tools of the materials scientist or engineer. Which is why crash test dummies are designed in the light of many decades of sound biophysical data rather than the opinion of some random doctor.

Your photos are actually quite illuminating. First, there is no evidence whatsoever of crushing. Which means that your helmet did very little to reduce the impact forces (and that comes from a straight forward application of Newton's Laws of motion). What is evident is that the (presumably) polycarbonate shell failed in a different place to the expanded foam interior. This points to failure through high shear loading. Impact with the ground with a fair lateral velocity would cause just such a loading - and it is a very common - probably the most common - sort of impact. This sort of impact imparts a considerable rotational acceleration to the head - something a helmet unable to meaningfully mitigate against. Also note that rotational acceleration is type of force which cause the most serious brain injuries. One such, and it is common, is diffuse axonal injury. Most victims die, and of those who survive, very few recover sufficiently to be able to return to an independent existence.

It's a shame you choose to view this as an exercise in point scoring: there is a debate that urgently needs to be had as to the role of helmets in cycling safety. An informed debate can only be had with proper science, not opinions. Whilst this dogmatism that helmets save no matter what the circumstance persists, there will be little or no effort made to address the real issues (casual disregard of safety by the motorist and an infrastructure hostile to the needs of vulnerable uses such as pedestrians and cyclists being foremost). That is unlikely to happen for as long as helmet wearing is seen as a panacea.
 

Wobblers

Euthermic
Location
Minkowski Space
This interesting but not enlightening. If you are travelling at 14kph, and you stop in 2 msecs you will experience around 200g deceleration. But if you stop in 6 msec, you will only experience 60g of deceleration, which puts you further away from the life threatening injury area.

View attachment 374050

To experience 100g over 6 msecs, you would have to be moving much faster, over 21kph.

Or am I misunderstanding you?

Yes.

Typical impact velocities for adults comfartably exceeds 14 kph from a standing or near standing position. We already covered this, umpteen billion posts ago.
 

Spinney

Bimbleur extraordinaire
Location
Back up north
Mod note: please leave the personal bickering out of it and stick to the facts. Otherwise your posts will either be edited for you or removed.
 
Yes.

Typical impact velocities for adults comfartably exceeds 14 kph from a standing or near standing position. We already covered this, umpteen billion posts ago.

I was talking about this bit I quoted.
. For instance, a 200 g impulse for 2 milleseconds will not induce a life threatening brain injury, but a 100 g impulse over 6 ms will.

This seems that you are saying a helmet can turn a a 200 g impulse for 2 milleseconds into a 100 g impulse over 6 ms.

But that makes no sense. It's apples and oranges. The first implies a change of velocity of 14km/h, and the second a change of 21km/h. All the quote says is it's better to crash at 14km/h without a helmet than 21 km/h with a helmet, which I think most people would agree with.
 

Wobblers

Euthermic
Location
Minkowski Space
[QUOTE 4962416, member: 43827"]Amazing what you can see from a photo. I bow to your superior knowledge.

Not being snide now, but are you a professional in the field of materials and engineering related to helmets? If you are I will definitely take your opinions more seriously.[/QUOTE]

I work in the field of soft condensed matter these days. Which means structured liquids and allied materials. These have the awkward property of exhibiting elastic properties similar to more traditional solids... and flowing like conventional liquids at longer time scales. Usually these sorts of things are described as having "viscoelastic" properties. I use a cup and cone rheometer to apply shear to these materials to chart their behaviour.

Or are you only going to consider the opinion of those who design helmets exclusively? In which case, you're ignoring all the thousands of engineers who design load bearing structures. In fact, that would be to discount almost entirely the expertise in this country to evaluate these sorts of structures. That would be excessively restrictive.
 

Wobblers

Euthermic
Location
Minkowski Space
I was talking about this bit I quoted.


This seems that you are saying a helmet can turn a a 200 g impulse for 2 milleseconds into a 100 g impulse over 6 ms.

But that makes no sense. It's apples and oranges. The first implies a change of velocity of 14km/h, and the second a change of 21km/h. All the quote says is it's better to crash at 14km/h without a helmet than 21 km/h with a helmet, which I think most people would agree with.

No!

Those were examples to illustrate my point: high force short duration impulses are better tolerated than lower force longer duration impulses. The second example is one from earlier where I showed that the wearing of a perfectly performing and ideally compressable helmet would not have reduced the severity of injuries The earlier exchange I referred to clearly showed that the wearer would have sustained life threatening injuries with or without helmet [1]. Please read the relevant posts.

[1] Actually, the non helmetted impact forces were close to 400 g. That's beyond the range of the available data, so I'm making the (not unreasonable) assumption that it lies in the life threatening range.
 

Glasgow44

Veteran
I had a really bad fall off my bike last weekend. It was my own fault, I was daydreaming and drifted towards the side of the road where there was a wall. By the time I realised and my brain told me to correct myself, my bike hit the wall and knocked me sideways onto the road. I scraped the outside of my right thigh, cut my knee but, worse of all, I banged my head on the road – I shudder to think what would have happened if I hadn’t been wearing a helmet (the helmet I was wearing was a cheap one I had bought from Aldi). Anyway, the next day I went out and treated myself to a new helmet (you can’t be too careful) – this one:


https://www.evanscycles.com/bell-stratus-helmet-EV290993
 
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I had a really bad fall off my bike last weekend. It was my own fault, I was daydreaming and drifted towards the side of the road where there was a wall. By the time I realised and my brain told me to correct myself, my bike hit and wall and knocked me sideways onto the road. I scraped the outside of my right thigh, cut my knee but, worse of all, I banged my head on the road – I shudder to think what would have happened if I hadn’t been wearing a helmet (the helmet I was wearing was a cheap one I had bought from Aldi). Anyway, the next day I went out and treated myself to a new helmet (you can’t be too careful) – this one:


https://www.evanscycles.com/bell-stratus-helmet-EV290993

Well you've worked it out, good call.
 

mjr

Comfy armchair to one person & a plank to the next
Who knows what would have happened? Maybe you wouldn't have drifted into daydreaming so dangerously and reacted so slowly if you hadn't wrapped your brain in a hat made of similar stuff to house insulation. There's no evidence helmets reduce casualty rates and so you're actually being superstitious not careful and a helmet marketer's dream. For more, see http://www.cyclechat.net/threads/the-cyclechat-helmet-debate-thread.187059/
 

Threevok

Growing old disgracefully
Location
South Wales
I've long been a believer that - there are situations where a helmet helps with an impact and situations where it won't

It seems you've discovered one where the helmet did help.

I tend to err on the side of caution myself and always wear mine.

That said, it's a gamble even getting on a bike these days, so I understand why some risk not to
 
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