The CycleChat Helmet Debate Thread

[ufkacbln]

Because from an early age, and ever since it was invented, we have been taught to be fearful and subservient to the Great Motor Car. We are taught that whenever something bad happens to us involving the Great Motor Car, we are to blame. The sense of danger afflicting normal, safe activities is so imprinted on our minds that we are made to feel afraid at the thought of being anywhere but inside the Great Motor Car.

UK victim-blaming propaganda:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0c75VKvcsY&feature=youtu.be


GC

This was the group who were forced to remove an "educational game" where to get on your bike children also had to wear knee and elbow pads!

 

[doog]

It's pretty straight forward- lots of different types of cycling- some carry more risk than others - therefore 'cycling is safe' is a generalisation

You can analyse it, read into it or pull it to bits as much as you like all day long, it's a perfectly reasonable comment ...

Seems a reasonable comment and its why many people (some even on this debate ) risk assess the type of cycling activity they are undertaking and decide if they should wear a lid or not.

 

[Justinslow]

That does explain an awful lot....

Yeah like some of us don't pootle around at 11 mph on a commute or a leisure ride?

 

[martint235]

Yeah like some of us don't pootle around at 11 mph on a commute or a leisure ride?
View attachment 129638

I reckon if you come off from that riding position you're going need clavicle protection rather than a helmet.

 

[Justinslow]

I reckon if you come off from that riding position you're going need clavicle protection rather than a helmet.

You know, that's an interesting thing, one of the guys rode into the back of a parked freelander at speed on a TT bike A few months ago, his face was pretty messed up as you can imagine, nose nearly sliced off and loss of teeth, no breaks or any "major" injuries though, obviously he was wearing his helmet, I haven't got round to asking him yet his thoughts on whether his helmet did any good or not, but I will.
My bike is actually not set all that radical as it kills my back if it's too aggressive.
You can understand why TT organisers emphasise keeping your head up!

 

[doog]

That's quite right. And when they risk-assess, they should have good evidence to help them, not just some marketing bollocks.

The presumption by some that 'marketing' comes before the natural human instinct to protects ones head is slightly debatable..

 

[Fab Foodie]

The presumption by some that 'marketing' comes before the natural human instinct to protects ones head is slightly debatable..

I think you'll find in many walks of life marketing triumphs over facts or common sense ...

 

[martint235]

You know, that's an interesting thing, one of the guys rode into the back of a parked freelander at speed on a TT bike A few months ago, his face was pretty messed up as you can imagine, nose nearly sliced off and loss of teeth, no breaks or any "major" injuries though, obviously he was wearing his helmet, I haven't got round to asking him yet his thoughts on whether his helmet did any good or not, but I will.
My bike is actually not set all that radical as it kills my back if it's too aggressive.
You can understand why TT organisers emphasise keeping your head up!

Without being there, I'm only able to picture it I my my mind. Either the helmet failed to help at all as his face and nose are damaged or possibly, and this is supposition, as he hit what is a fairly flat almost vertical surface probably helmet first, the helmet forced his head to tilt backwards making the impact for his face worse. Possible?

 

[Justinslow]

Without being there, I'm only able to picture it I my my mind. Either the helmet failed to help at all as his face and nose are damaged or possibly, and this is supposition, as he hit what is a fairly flat almost vertical surface probably helmet first, the helmet forced his head to tilt backwards making the impact for his face worse. Possible?

I don't know, but obviously his face wasn't covered so he literally "face planted" the car probably the rear windscreen? Anyway any guesswork is pointless, I'll ask him about it one day, he was out last night should have done so then, he started the ride with all teeth on show but at the end he had a big gap in the front, he had took out his denture as it was bothering him! Needless to say he's not going to ride a TT bike anymore.

 

[doog]

Eh? The marketing is all about implying 'protection' that the product does not in fact offer.

Was there any marketing during the Greco-Persian wars in 500 BC? Nope they simply wanted to protect their heads....its human instinct..

As for marketing, its hardly trendy to wear a lid unless you're a roadie who chooses to wear one etc. My kids never wore lids, yet they were probably the most market intensive targeted generation on the planet.

 

[martint235]

Was there any marketing during the Greco-Persian wars in 500 BC? Nope they simply wanted to protect their heads....its human instinct..

As for marketing, its hardly trendy to wear a lid unless you are a roadie who chooses too. My kids never wore lids, yet they were probably the most market intensive targeted generation on the planet.

Although I can't see any logical thought behind wearing a helmet, it also isn't instinctive to wear one. Instinctive behaviour is without thinking: ducking when a rock is thrown at you for example. Wearing a helmet is something that is thought about and therefore can be influenced by marketing, peer pressure etc.

And I would argue that smiths in Ancient Greece did have primitive forms of marketing so in a large city there would be more than one smith vying for your trade

 

[doog]

I really don't know what your point is, if there is one. You have been so monumentally rude about people who don't choose to wear plastic hats, but now you're invoking ancient Greeks? You are being ridiculous now.

I simply agreed with a post and you angrily threw in 'Marketing bollocks'.....neither me or the poster had mentioned anything of the sort and now you are getting in a bit of a tiz

As for being " monumentally rude about people who don't choose to wear plastic hats"...I rode 1500 miles around Europe without one last September so I really have no idea what your'e talking about...(CGOAB journal posted on this very site)

Its all about choice and yes people can make a risk assessment without having to listen to your alleged 'marketing bollocks'. (not my words moderators )

 

[srw]

Was there any marketing during the Greco-Persian wars in 500 BC? Nope they simply wanted to protect their heads....its human instinct..

You'd be surprised. That Aristophanes had a thing or two to say about the marketing of helmets in wartime
http://www.poetryintranslation.com/PITBR/Greek/Peace.htm
(The context is that Trygaios has managed to bring about an end to the Peloponnesian war, so all the paraphenalia of war, including the helmets, is useless).

and if that doesn't convinced, then Homer's Iliad is full of helmet marketing. Such as...

Great Hector now turned his head aside while he shook the helmet, and the lot of Paris flew out first. The others took their several stations, each by his horses and the place where his arms were lying, while Alexandrus, husband of lovely Helen, put on his goodly armour. First he greaved his legs with greaves of good make and fitted with ancle-clasps of silver; after this he donned the cuirass of his brother Lycaon, and fitted it to his own body; he hung his silver-studded sword of bronze about his shoulders, and then his mighty shield. On his comely head he set his helmet, well-wrought, with a crest of horse-hair that nodded menacingly above it, and he grasped a redoubtable spear that suited his hands. In like fashion Menelaus also put on his armour.

(http://www.gutenberg.org/files/2199/2199-h/2199-h.htm)

 

[martint235]

I simply agreed with a post and you angrily threw in 'Marketing bollocks'.....neither me or the poster had mentioned anything of the sort and now you are getting in a bit of a tiz

As for being " monumentally rude about people who don't choose to wear plastic hats"...I rode 1500 miles around Europe without one last September so I really have no idea what your'e talking about...

Its all about choice and yes people can make a risk assessment without having to listen to your alleged 'marketing bollocks'.

The "marketing bollocks" comes into play once you've made your risk assessment. For example, it's icy, you think the risk of coming off your bike has increased. Specialized subtly infer that should you come off your bike their product will help to prevent injury. That doesn't change your risk assessment but it may alter your subsequent behaviour eg you may buy and wear a helmet. No one can say your assessment is wrong, that's a personal opinion but people can say that they believe your subsequent actions (buying a helmet) is misguided

 

[Justinslow]

I popped into halfords the other day to get a new helmet for my daughter. Our charity ride around Snetterton race track required us all to wear helmets. The sales guy was very good, measuring her head and correctly selecting and fitting the helmet with advice about how to carry it, look after it etc.

The choice of helmet was hers, she does look a bit of a soldier in it though, but she liked it. We rode around the track for two and a half hours and she didn't once mention it being uncomfortable or irritating.

She doesn't always wear one though

As I paid at the till the sales guy said "should be made law you know"..............