The CycleChat Helmet Debate Thread

[mjr]

And searching the rest of the cycling safety board, I only found Why wouldn't you wear a helmet. There are more pictures of badly-injured helmet-wearers than of claimed-successful helmets. I'm off to lunch now but that seems very strange.

 

[mjr]

Given just how many helmets do split or crack on impact, you can easily understand why manufacturers are reluctant to release data around their performance in various impacts.

I can't resist this: how many? Do we know whether the rate of helmets splitting has increased since most are only tested against smooth surfaces and edges (EN 1078/CPSC) and not even rock-like shapes (Snell B95) any more?

Should helmet advocates be seeking more realistic road-like surfaces to be used in testing instead of the flat, smooth anvils?

 

[MontyVeda]

Much like the 'crumple zone' in a car, it is designed to do that whilst absorbing the impact forces and you don't need to be a Materials Scientist (as someone mentioned earlier) to be aware of that fact. Some people really do like to over-complicate things in order to bolster their own point of view.

This is an example of my favourite type of scientific observation... ignore the science bit, skip the observation bit and just make the rest up.

 

[martint235]

I can't resist this: how many? Do we know whether the rate of helmets splitting has increased since most are only tested against smooth surfaces and edges (EN 1078/CPSC) and not even rock-like shapes (Snell B95) any more?

Should helmet advocates be seeking more realistic road-like surfaces to be used in testing instead of the flat, smooth anvils?

I'm going on the usual anecdotal "My helmet saved my life" posts. I don't recall seeing any showing a crumpled or crushed helmet, they are usually ones showing large cracks or even chunks missing from the helmet entirely.

 

[adscrim]

I can't resist this: how many? Do we know whether the rate of helmets splitting has increased since most are only tested against smooth surfaces and edges (EN 1078/CPSC) and not even rock-like shapes (Snell B95) any more?

Should helmet advocates be seeking more realistic road-like surfaces to be used in testing instead of the flat, smooth anvils?

I'm guessing, but are they only tested when new and at indoor temperatures? I wonder what effect age and temperature have on material properties. Does the polymer become more brittle with both age and falling temperature?

 

[ufkacbln]

So do I, although i am not quite as oppressed as you on this score. I last wore it for last year's Brompton World Championship, and expect I will next wear it for the same event this year.

I was there - I was not allowed to ride the trike across the race track without a helmet!

I had to stop, get off, walk across the track and remount!

 

[Justinslow]

but given the progress we seem to have made with Justin, I thought it worth at least one go.

I wouldn't go breaking out the champagne just yet.......

What is continually disappointing is comments like this

Hope the lady in question is ok and as @User says, perhaps better to buy studded tyres rather than replace the helmet.

We keep being told that wearing a helmet is a matter of choice, so upon making the choice to wear a helmet (however you came by that decision) you (not just Martin, all the other usual suspects aswell) then carry on telling us we made the wrong choice!
Why can't you just be happy with someone's choice that is "I want to wear a helmet" and if they say it did some good when they had an off why are they always wrong? (They can't always be wrong).
If you choose not to wear a helmet, well fine, we won't lose any sleep over it, it's not like we're family or mates or anything is it?

 

[MontyVeda]

We keep being told that wearing a helmet is a matter of choice, so upon making the choice to wear a helmet (however you came by that decision) you (not just Martin, all the other usual suspects aswell) then carry on telling us we made the wrong choice!
Why can't you just be happy with someone's choice that is "I want to wear a helmet" and if they say it did some good when they had an off why are they always wrong? (They can't always be wrong).
If you choose not to wear a helmet, well fine, we won't lose any sleep over it, it's not like we're family or mates or anything is it?

Do you think the studded tyres suggestion was bad advice?

 

[Profpointy]

@Profpointy this degree of misunderstanding has to be willful.

He has a point though, even if it doesn't actually contradict the studded tyres better than helmet point - though it could be argued the latter is a "false choice"

I disagree with a fair bit of what Justins say, well, most really, but arguing against him by "playing the man" isn't a good argument

 

[Justinslow]

Do you think the studded tyres suggestion was bad advice?

No, I think studded tyres on ice is a great idea, however I think telling someone who has decided to use a helmet and has just had an off where a helmet has helped them, to then "not bother replacing the helmet" is ridiculous. It's their choice what they do, and only their choice, not yours. Who are you to dictate to people what they should do?

 

[Justinslow]

I am done with explaining stuff to him, having tried loads of it back up thread, and earlier threads. I just wish he would contribute something of substance or stop. As matters stand it is all just a sad waste.

Look at your own posts, what do they actually tell us? It's mostly ridicule and word play "trying to be clever" bit rich you moaning about others.

 

[mjr]

I'm guessing, but are they only tested when new and at indoor temperatures? I wonder what effect age and temperature have on material properties. Does the polymer become more brittle with both age and falling temperature?

According to http://www.bhsi.org/stdcomp.htm for "Europe", helmets are tested when new but artificially aged (see both "Conditioning environments" and "Light aging") but the lab temperature is not specified so I suspect it's likely to be indoor room temperature. I'm unqualified to comment on the suitability of the aging processes. It would be better if a stock of actual naturally-aged old examples were kept and tested at intervals so that expired helmets could be withdrawn/recalled when they're no good, rather than an arbitrary 3 to 5 years old, but I suspect so many manufacturers would object to the expense that it would never happen.

...and if they say it did some good when they had an off why are they always wrong? (They can't always be wrong).

They're not always wrong, but logically most wearers who say it did some good must be wrong because the numbers claiming to be saved far exceed the highest numbers ever head-injured, so someone claiming a helmet did them good is probably mistaken. Not certain or for definite, but probably.

I think telling someone who has decided to use a helmet and has just had an off where a helmet has helped them to then "not bother replacing the helmet" is ridiculous.

I would too, but I think it's ridiculous to assume that the helmet has helped them.

Who are you to dictate to people what they should do?

So if offering advice is the same as dictating to you, do you hire a Financial Dictator to tell you how to manage your pension?

 

[Mugshot]

you (not just Martin, all the other usual suspects aswell) then carry on telling us we made the wrong choice!

Who are the usual suspects?

 

[MontyVeda]

No, I think studded tyres on ice is a great idea, however I think telling someone who has decided to use a helmet and has just had an off where a helmet has helped them, to then "not bother replacing the helmet" is ridiculous. It's their choice what they do, and only their choice, not yours. Who are you to dictate to people what they should do?

I don't recall dictating anything to anyone. It may be their choice alone but we're talking about advice... can advice be offered from both sides of the fence? ...or is it only valid when it comes from 'your' side??

 

[Fab Foodie]

Who are the usual suspects?

I think Kaiser Sosa was one of them ...