The CycleChat Helmet Debate Thread

[growingvegetables]

I quick way to find out if it's classed as a safety device (PPE) or not is finding out whether any given helmet is VAT free or not... i think.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...uipment/vat-notice-70123-protective-equipment

"They are zero-rated when both of the following conditions are met:

Condition Description
1 The cycle helmet is manufactured to standards which satisfy requirements imposed by the European Community Directive on Personal Protective Equipment (the PPE Directive)
2 It bears a mark indicating conformity with those standards."

[Edited .

But I won't be rushing out to enjoy any zero-rating. ]

 

[Licramite]

The Warminster Journal doesn't seem to put its news online, but given the area it covers, if one was http://www.itv.com/news/meridian/update/2016-02-08/police-seek-witnesses-over-hit-and-run/ and the other was http://www.thisiswiltshire.co.uk/ne...fter_cyclist_injured_in_Warminster_collision/ then those reports don't say if they were wearing helmets or not - and in my experience, that usually means they were, because police and reporters seem only to keen to mention it if not, despite wearers being the minority.

So were they wearing helmets or not?


Cycle helmets are designed for falling onto a smooth road or a kerbstone, not for collisions with cars, so why do you think they would have helped in either collision? Was there something else in the reporting to suggest their head injuries had been similar to falling off the bike?

I didn't - my point was it's interesting they both suffered head injuries - so of al the other injuries they may have suffered it was the head injuries that were of note. - kind of indicates if you are to have an accident protecting your head seams a priority. - how you do it is up to you, I think lots of people on this site put on there - it won't happen to me - vest and off they merrily go.

 

[MontyVeda]

Strange how I've never bumped my head on the rare occasion that i have come off my bike.
I used to fall off a lot more as a kid when pretending to be Colt Seavers... but don't recall having a bandaged head back then either.
It's almost as if I subconsciously learned to protect my head during a fall when i was toddler or something.
I'm not saying I'll never bang my head, but i feel the chance is so remote that adopting PPE is pointless.. but that's just my uninformed opinion.

 

[Mugshot]

I didn't - my point was it's interesting they both suffered head injuries - so of al the other injuries they may have suffered it was the head injuries that were of note. - kind of indicates if you are to have an accident protecting your head seams a priority.

Which ever side of the fence you're going to sit what it indicates is the obsession with reporting whether a cyclist suffered a head injury, that snippet of information is the priority. What it doesn't indicate is what an individual cyclists priorities are or should be.

 

[MontyVeda]

Which ever side of the fence you're going to sit what it indicates is the obsession with reporting whether a cyclist suffered a head injury, that snippet of information is the priority. What it doesn't indicate is what an individual cyclists priorities are or should be.

For a journalist (and i use the term lightly), that snippet of information is more 'newsworthy' than a grazed elbow or broken wrist... head injuries simply sound more dramatic.

 

[MontyVeda]

Even if people do bang their heads, they usually don't suffer any ill effects. This is what skulls evolved for. They are very tough and strong. Injuries to the scalp lead to loads of blood and look dramatic, but they aren't that serious overall.

When I was about 6 or 7 I rode my bike full tilt down the slope into an underpass that turned sharp right under the road. I failed to make the turn and headbutted the wall full steam, I have the photos of myself with a massive bruise on my forehead to prove it. My skull didn't crack, I didn't get brain damage, I didn't die.

it's almost as if we've evolved a kind of bone helmet! Isn't nature wonderful.

 

[snorri]

- kind of indicates if you are to have an accident protecting your head seams a priority. - .

Really? If I have been disembowelled in a collision with a fence strainer post, the barbed wire scratches on my head due to failing to wear a helmet are of no consequence whatsover.

PS Which is just what Adrian has said, I must learn to type faster.

 

[mjr]

I didn't - my point was it's interesting they both suffered head injuries - so of al the other injuries they may have suffered it was the head injuries that were of note. - kind of indicates if you are to have an accident protecting your head seams a priority. - how you do it is up to you, I think lots of people on this site put on there - it won't happen to me - vest and off they merrily go.

In other words, everyone who disagrees with you is stupid, eh? Or maybe we agree that protecting our heads is important but we've looked at the data and our own experiences, concluded that cyclists with helmets seem more likely to hit their heads and so decided to try to reduce the risk of a head impact be not weighting and enlarging it, rather than accept and mitigate it.

Anyway, the point I was making was that those two injury collision reports don't add much information to the helmet debate: they may have hit their heads partly because they were wearing helmets, but we simply don't know from what's online and you unhelpfully didn't tell us whether the print-only Warminster Journal contained more detail (so either it does not, or you've recycled it).

 

[mjr]

Some have blamed the weight of my old helmet for the neck pain I suffered and say that newer ones are lighter and I should just buy a new one and I'd be OK. I had chance to inspect someone's new famous-brand cycle helmet yesterday. It felt lighter. It looked sort-of smaller, with a less bulky back-of-head and larger vent holes.

I put in on the scales and it was within 3g of the weight of the one it replaced. We just can't trust our senses about cycle helmets, can we?

 

[Arrowfoot]

I didn't - my point was it's interesting they both suffered head injuries - so of al the other injuries they may have suffered it was the head injuries that were of note. - kind of indicates if you are to have an accident protecting your head seams a priority. - how you do it is up to you, I think lots of people on this site put on there - it won't happen to me - vest and off they merrily go.

Don't waste your time debating here. Just cast your eyes all over the UK where wearing of helmet is not compulsory. The vast majority who commute, race or go the distance wear helmets. One of the most ardent anti helmet campaigner has been caught out in a photo but claims he uses it as a sun visor. He probably rolls out his fridge to the patio on a warm day to reach for the ice cubes. Thats the calibre you are dealing with.

Surely the smart and well informed ones cannot be all in this forum. I am still waiting for the research literature from Australia where helmets are compulsory and based on the logic that you heard on the thread here and the years that went by, there has got be dozens of helmeted cyclists dying of torsional injuries monthly unless cycling collisions in Australia are rare. Same with UCI, Olympics etc where helmets are compulsory.

When you ask them why the Dutch/Danes ride slowly and don't wear lycra, the no helmet argument suddenly disappears.

Just read the post for the entertainment that it provides. Look at the post and guess

 

[Mugshot]

Don't waste your time debating here. Just cast your eyes all over the UK where wearing of helmet is not compulsory. The vast majority who commute, race or go the distance wear helmets. One of the most ardent anti helmet campaigner has been caught out in a photo but claims he uses it as a sun visor. He probably rolls out his fridge to the patio on a warm day to reach for the ice cubes. Thats the calibre you are dealing with.

Surely the smart and well informed ones cannot be all in this forum. I am still waiting for the research literature from Australia where helmets are compulsory and based on the logic that you heard on the thread here and the years that went by, there has got be dozens of helmeted cyclists dying of torsional injuries monthly unless cycling collisions in Australia are rare. Same with UCI, Olympics etc where helmets are compulsory.

When you ask them why the Dutch/Danes ride slowly and don't wear lycra, the no helmet argument suddenly disappears.

Just read the post for the entertainment that it provides. Look at the post and guess

They don't like it up 'em!!

 

[broadway]

When you ask them why the Dutch/Danes ride slowly and don't wear lycra, the no helmet argument suddenly disappears.

A bit of an own goal there, unless all UK cyclist wear lycra and don't ride slowly, especially as low speed offs are where helmets are more likely to be working within their design parameters.

 

[ufkacbln]

I quick way to find out if it's classed as a safety device (PPE) or not is finding out whether any given helmet is VAT free or not... i think.

When the Post Office tried to make helmets compulsory the HSE clearly stated that cycle helmets did NOT come under the remit of PPE

That is why the Post Office was forced to introduce them as uniform and enforce their use in this way

 

[ufkacbln]

@Arrowfoot
I will see your "anti helmet campaigner" being "caught in a photo wearing a helmet "

....and raise you a "Cracknell" evangelical paid helmet campaigner caught in a photo not wearing one

 

[ufkacbln]

A bit of an own goal there, unless all UK cyclist wear lycra and don't ride slowly, especially as low speed offs are where helmets are more likely to be working within their design parameters.

try going to Cambridge or Oxford where the vast majority are in the slow non Lycra non helmet cohort