The CycleChat Helmet Debate Thread

[theclaud]

Going back to mountain bike riders, why does no one question their desire to wear a helmet? I was on a mtb ride yesterday where 3 riders fell off, were they all bonkers to be wearing helmets?

If they start berating and insulting happily lidless folks on internet forums, and refusing to listen in response, then they will get the short shrift they deserve. I sometimes ride mtb, mostly without a lid. There are types of riding for which I would consider wearing one, but I don't do them very often.

 

[martint235]

Going back to mountain bike riders, why does no one question their desire to wear a helmet? I was on a mtb ride yesterday where 3 riders fell off, were they all bonkers to be wearing helmets?

There's an entirely different set of risks involved in MTB. Also there is an entirely different helmet design with different test criteria etc.

If you're doing downhill MTBing wearing a road helmet, it will be as much use as it would be if you were riding on the road with one. That is, according to the evidence, none.

 

[mjr]

Going back to mountain bike riders, why does no one question their desire to wear a helmet? I was on a mtb ride yesterday where 3 riders fell off, were they all bonkers to be wearing helmets?

Personally, I don't get too involved in that discussion because I have limited experience of MTBing and I've not seen much research about it. I would note that EN1078 does not seem a sufficient standard for MTB helmets because there aren't many bits of flat tarmac or kerbs on MTB tracks and those are the EN1078 test surfaces, but I hope that there is some higher standard for them.

 

[benb]

Yes it probably is hard to guess isn't it, just like its hard to guess whether a helmet may have helped in other accidents. Obviously in this case it didn't but that may be due to injuries to other parts of the body.

It's pointless looking at individual incidents and trying to work out whether a helmet or lack of one would have helped or not. It's impossible to know.
That's why we have to look at big datasets to work out whether helmets are effective or not.
And when we do that, we discover that they are not.
But I've explained all this to you before: you are either unable or unwilling to understand.

 

[MontyVeda]

You're probably going to ignore this but....

Can be, like anything, it's whether you take precautions that matters, like looking where you are walking, learning how to operate a piece of equipment, wearing gloves etc etc.
Generally you will probably be gardening alone or with a partner, with no other human input to cause you accident, when cycling or walking along side the road, even driving or as a passenger in a car, you have all manner of "in coming" to deal with.
And I think they are warned, every piece of gardening equipment or chemical or whatever will contain on the label a warning for the operator to read.

 

[Justinslow]

Doesn't take much prodding for the affable veneer to crack, does it?

I'm hardly calling you an "arse" am I?

 

[Justinslow]

There's an entirely different set of risks involved in MTB. Also there is an entirely different helmet design with different test criteria etc.

Oh and the similarities of coming under the umbrella of "bicycles" with "cyclists" riding them! One rule for one, one for another.......

 

[Justinslow]

You are hardly being sufficiently polite as to consider what people are saying to you and responding appropriately.

Mate seriously, you cannot lecture me on how to communicate with people politely, you sound like a spoilt brat student!

 

[Justinslow]

Presumption of liability would be a good start. Focus the mind of the meat in control of the machine.

Yes but people will still be looking at phones, fiddling with the stereo, talking, putting make up on, just not looking!

 

[ufkacbln]

Going back to mountain bike riders, why does no one question their desire to wear a helmet? I was on a mtb ride yesterday where 3 riders fell off, were they all bonkers to be wearing helmets?

This is where the driving helmet argument works well.

People decide not to wear a helmet when walking or in the garden as THEY feel it is unnecessary, yet feel it necessary when riding a bike.

Absolutely fine, an informed personal choice

Now racing, and mountain bike riding is a greater risk then normal cycling so if someone decides to wear one when undergoing these activities, but not when commuting, a leisure ride or going down to the shops.

Again a personal informed decision down to the individual

Now apply the same comparisons to motoring

After all....

Look at rally driving, why does no one question their desire to wear a helmet and fire proof overalls?
I saw a rally on TV where a dozen cards crashed, some spectacularly, were they all bonkers to be wearing helmets?


Suggesting that ctivities such as racing and mountain biking are an argument for the average leisure cyclist to wear a helmet is exactly the same as using rally driving as an argument that the average car driver should wear fireproof overalls and a helmet

 

[Justinslow]

Doesn't take much prodding for the affable veneer to crack, does it?

By the way is that an admission of trolling? Tut tut.

 

[ufkacbln]

How do we stop cars hitting people then?

As Meier Hillman pointed out years ago

Forget the red herring that cycle helmets provide an ability for the motor lobby to blame the victims for not protecting themselves against the transgressions of the vehicle operators

Give driver training the same level of funding, support and time (along with evangelism?) that is spent on promoting helmets and we would have a far greater effect on road safety and a far greater reduction in accidents involving cyclists

 

[Justinslow]

So we should use the law and get them off the road.

No arguments there, ain't gonna stop it though.....

 

[Profpointy]

I can because you are not doing so. Respect is something to be earned and people who steam into long standing threads, spout ill informed opinions, and call people morons, don't deserve respect. Similarly people who both refuse to take on board what people say to them, and offer nothing in return, don't deserve respect.

In fairness to Justin, he's maybe the most reasonable of the evangalists I've come across. Mostly debates, and only occasionally descends to insults, and having called someone an arse myself upthread, I can't be too self-righteous. That said, not sure he's quite understood the key points.

 

[martint235]

Oh and the similarities of coming under the umbrella of "bicycles" with "cyclists" riding them! One rule for one, one for another.......

Or Formula 1 drivers wearing different protective gear to Joe Bloggs in his Fiesta, after all they are both "drivers" in "cars".

I don't understand the point you're trying to make. If you go MTBing in a standard polystyrene helmet such as the ones you see on the road, the evidence suggests it will be as useful as it is on the road ie not at all. If however you wear a MTB specific helmet, you'll find the tests are different and results for some of them actually seem to be publicly available.