TFL Die In

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Andrew Gilligans response to tonight's protest is here.

I must say I didn't attend because I am in a dialogue of the deaf. I attended because I use CS2 several times a week and TfL managed to spend a small fortune on something that is utter sh!t and frequently actually makes matters worse, not better for cyclists. And that their response to the danger at Bow was to instigate a confusing system which makes cyclists wait twice at the lights because traffic flow is more important than putting in decent cycle and pedestrian lights (which could be easily combined to make a very reasonable crossing). I also went because the response to cyclists dying in collisions with HGVS was to start fining cyclists and talking about high viz and plastic hats.

I don't agree with everything said at the rally - if you could find an agenda that over 1000 people agreed with in its entirety I would be surprised. But asking to not have to share the roads with lorries that don't have mirrors to eliminate blind spots in a crowded city like London doesn't sound like asking for the moon on a stick. Hell, it would be quite nice to not have to share the roads with some HGV drivers who have been found to be p!ssed, half blind, driving unlicensed or on the phone after they have killed someone.

Gilligan has a nerve. I gave the benefit of the doubt when he talked about knee-jerk reactions , although cyclists (and pedestrians) have been disproportionately dying with HGV collisions for years. But with this article he can fek off.

There seems to be a fair few intelligent criticisms of Gilligan's response to the protest getting posted under his original blog entry (not that difficult when you consider what utter rubbish he wrote in the first place)
This one seems to sum it up pretty well:



"Instead of being rude and disparaging of well over a thousand people who protested this evening, perhaps going along to see what it was all about and listen would have been more effective than mouthing off prematurely?!

Many of us who went have lost loved ones and these comments are out of order.

The demand for a ban on vehicles that are blind to those around them is NOT a demand for all lorries to be banned 24/7. Either you are being very dim or disingenuous. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you just didn't 'get it'. As the brave, bereaved mother of a girl killed by an HGV in Birmingham said, equipment that costs just a few hundred pounds would save lives. Lorry drivers, by definition, do not have to be blind to all that is around them. As the Mayor and you both say you are working on imposing charges/restrictions on lorries without safety kit in London, you must know this. Cameras, well-designed cabs, sensors, warning alerts, proper training, etc can all enable lorry drivers to be aware of what is around them. Rush hour bans are also possible, and the Olympics proved that tough restrictions can be made to work.

The idea that those of us who protested are just out to set TfL up to fail is both absurd and offensive. We just want to be safe and we don't want to see any more people dying needlessly. The demands of the Dutch Cycling Union would seem ridiculous here, but it is the persistent demands for ever better facilities that have helped bring about the cycling revolution in The Netherlands - that didn't happen by people being grateful for every crumb tossed at them. It was this type of protest in The Netherlands that inspired tonight's 'Die in'. 'Stop child murder' was a pretty harsh slogan, but it worked.

When we complain about the crackdown on cyclists, we do so, not because we are blind to the dangers, quite the contrary is true. When cyclists make up such a small percentage of traffic, cause so few deaths and serious injuries, we object to the police issuing 40% of tickets to cyclists in the recent (otherwise welcome) crackdown. We don't say it is OK for people to flout the law however they travel, and as you note above, some infringements like stopping ahead of the line can often be done because cyclists are forced to do so by drivers abusing ASLs (which the CPS also seem to have acknowledged in their decision to drop a prosecution for that very situation).

We do object to being stopped and rudely told by the police to wear helmets, which are optional, and arguably dangerous (the CTC's excellent evidence review makes that very clear). All we are saying is that people should get their priorities right - that means sorting out HGVs as the main focus for action right now.

Whilst the plans for more cycle projects are welcome, we are too used to promises not being met. CS2 was delivered by this Mayor and he has taken too long to properly respond to concerns about it. He still expresses scepticism of the Go Dutch principles, despite signing up to them. We were promised CS5 by the end of the year, where is it - is TfL just going to back down to the crazies in Westminster Council again? Where is the big vision for a city where all main roads have safe, largely segregated cycle lanes and all side roads, residential streets and town centres have 20 mph limits? Why has the Safer Junctions review web page not been updated for 9 months and why are the few upgrades delivered so rubbish? Why are cycle campaigners still being told that motor traffic cannot be delayed to make junctions safer? We see too many vague promises. As the protest organiser said this evening 'it isn't rocket science' - just do what the Dutch do instead of finding endless excuses not to.

We appreciate change takes time, but we are seeing too little, delivered too late, evidence being ignored, promises being broken and no big vision for a fully cycle-safe and pedestrian-safe city.

Like any big group of people, there are a diversity of views and campaigning styles. As London's cycling commissioner, I hope that you make more effort to understand and unite London's many different current cyclists, those who want to cycle and other road safety campaigners. We need you firmly on our side, not playing piggy in the middle or sowing division.

Don't become part of the problem and don't let defensiveness lead you to fire off half-cocked.

Boris at least had the good sense to welcome the protest. I hope you will take the chance to apologise to all those you have offended and upset and start to see the cycle campaigners as part of your army, not your opposition. Work with us, don't patronise us."
 

Davidsw8

Senior Member
Location
London
There seems to be a fair few intelligent criticisms of Gilligan's response to the protest getting posted under his original blog entry (not that difficult when you consider what utter rubbish he wrote in the first place)
This one seems to sum it up pretty well:



"Instead of being rude and disparaging of well over a thousand people who protested this evening, perhaps going along to see what it was all about and listen would have been more effective than mouthing off prematurely?!

Many of us who went have lost loved ones and these comments are out of order.

The demand for a ban on vehicles that are blind to those around them is NOT a demand for all lorries to be banned 24/7. Either you are being very dim or disingenuous. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you just didn't 'get it'. As the brave, bereaved mother of a girl killed by an HGV in Birmingham said, equipment that costs just a few hundred pounds would save lives. Lorry drivers, by definition, do not have to be blind to all that is around them. As the Mayor and you both say you are working on imposing charges/restrictions on lorries without safety kit in London, you must know this. Cameras, well-designed cabs, sensors, warning alerts, proper training, etc can all enable lorry drivers to be aware of what is around them. Rush hour bans are also possible, and the Olympics proved that tough restrictions can be made to work.

The idea that those of us who protested are just out to set TfL up to fail is both absurd and offensive. We just want to be safe and we don't want to see any more people dying needlessly. The demands of the Dutch Cycling Union would seem ridiculous here, but it is the persistent demands for ever better facilities that have helped bring about the cycling revolution in The Netherlands - that didn't happen by people being grateful for every crumb tossed at them. It was this type of protest in The Netherlands that inspired tonight's 'Die in'. 'Stop child murder' was a pretty harsh slogan, but it worked.

When we complain about the crackdown on cyclists, we do so, not because we are blind to the dangers, quite the contrary is true. When cyclists make up such a small percentage of traffic, cause so few deaths and serious injuries, we object to the police issuing 40% of tickets to cyclists in the recent (otherwise welcome) crackdown. We don't say it is OK for people to flout the law however they travel, and as you note above, some infringements like stopping ahead of the line can often be done because cyclists are forced to do so by drivers abusing ASLs (which the CPS also seem to have acknowledged in their decision to drop a prosecution for that very situation).

We do object to being stopped and rudely told by the police to wear helmets, which are optional, and arguably dangerous (the CTC's excellent evidence review makes that very clear). All we are saying is that people should get their priorities right - that means sorting out HGVs as the main focus for action right now.

Whilst the plans for more cycle projects are welcome, we are too used to promises not being met. CS2 was delivered by this Mayor and he has taken too long to properly respond to concerns about it. He still expresses scepticism of the Go Dutch principles, despite signing up to them. We were promised CS5 by the end of the year, where is it - is TfL just going to back down to the crazies in Westminster Council again? Where is the big vision for a city where all main roads have safe, largely segregated cycle lanes and all side roads, residential streets and town centres have 20 mph limits? Why has the Safer Junctions review web page not been updated for 9 months and why are the few upgrades delivered so rubbish? Why are cycle campaigners still being told that motor traffic cannot be delayed to make junctions safer? We see too many vague promises. As the protest organiser said this evening 'it isn't rocket science' - just do what the Dutch do instead of finding endless excuses not to.

We appreciate change takes time, but we are seeing too little, delivered too late, evidence being ignored, promises being broken and no big vision for a fully cycle-safe and pedestrian-safe city.

Like any big group of people, there are a diversity of views and campaigning styles. As London's cycling commissioner, I hope that you make more effort to understand and unite London's many different current cyclists, those who want to cycle and other road safety campaigners. We need you firmly on our side, not playing piggy in the middle or sowing division.

Don't become part of the problem and don't let defensiveness lead you to fire off half-cocked.

Boris at least had the good sense to welcome the protest. I hope you will take the chance to apologise to all those you have offended and upset and start to see the cycle campaigners as part of your army, not your opposition. Work with us, don't patronise us."

That's an annoying post from AG, it starts off interestingly with the LTDA's cretinous findings but then he's writing off the cycling campaigners desires for change by saying, 'we're doing enough already and they just want more and they don't even know what they want'. The fact is, they may feel like they're doing enough but they seem to be doing the wrong thing/s (which ends up as being nothing).

With reference to the LTDA's findings, maybe I'll stand on a street corner in Westminster and film how many cabbies never indicate or how many pick up/drop off fares on corners and junctions - I'm willing to put money on both figures being a damn sight higher than 53%!
 

deptfordmarmoset

Full time tea drinker
Location
Armonmy Way
There seems to be a fair few intelligent criticisms of Gilligan's response to the protest getting posted under his original blog entry (not that difficult when you consider what utter rubbish he wrote in the first place)

The second part of his blog title was:
Cycling in London is becoming a dialogue of the deaf
He's right though. We're talking but he's not listening and Boris certainly isn't either.
 

stowie

Legendary Member
Fairly likely that was me. If he looked extremely cold, it was definitely me. The CC attire is good for drawing out other members. I shared a few moments with @BentMikey and the Lady Jane.

Well it was nice to nearly meet you! ^_^

I only saw one CC shirt so I guess it is a good possibility it was you. I did wonder if I should start waving through the mass of cyclists but seeing as you would have no idea who I was I thought it might look a bit odd...
 

Frood42

I know where my towel is
So the source of potential cyclists being scared off London's roads.....is cyclists who want to improve things. What a warped world we live in.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-25298354

I don't believe they are scaring people off at all.

Boris doesn't like the attention they are bringing and is trying to deflect their efforts, as the more pressure they place on him the more he has to look like he is doing something (rather than just spouting crap about spending a drop in the puddle £931million, IMO).
.
 

deptfordmarmoset

Full time tea drinker
Location
Armonmy Way
What scares me is not the deaths or the serious injuries - they've been around for a long time - but it's the fact that nobody's prepared to do anything about it.

When Jenny Jones repeatedly had to bring Boris back to the worsening KSI per journey figures, he accused her of ''hysterical scaremongering.'' So he's not prepared to look at the London problem. Gilligan later also used a similar tactic of only talking about deaths with a crowning flourish about not wanting to talk about deaths for fear of frightening people. The industries involved are not prepared to improve truck design. The authorities that licensed them to drive on public highways have already let us down. Hauliers have an appalling compliance on legal driving requirements and tippers are still operating without sidebars. Daily I see HGV drivers using hand held phones. The transport select committee asks questions about MOTs for bikes, rolled out the ''whatever happened to cycling proficiency?'' chestnut and generally displayed that their awareness of cycling issues ceased when they got a little badge for cycling around a couple of cones in the school playground 50 years ago. Oh and headphones!

Those are the things that really frighten me.
 

Kies

Guest
Like any politician, he wants the glory of getting London moving (by bike), but these deaths have brought his silly blue paint into focus. Changing these junctions will cost vast amounts of money - money he is not prepared to spend quickly.
 
Mr Johnson said too that he was tackling the issue of dangerous lorries. He said: "We are driving up safety standards for all vehicles.

"All lorries contracted to Tfl, the GLA or our supply chains will have side bars, audible and visual warnings, driver training and other ways of reducing the risk of collision

"We are working as you know on a new Safer Lorry Zone for London and together with the Dft we have launched an HGV taskforce that is targeting bad operators with dangerous machines

"So far we have fined 243 and actually impounded 14 of them."

http://road.cc/content/news/100439-...ing-dangerous-junctions-overhauls-33-promised

Random checks and 14 vehicles were so dangerous or their drivers were breaking the law so badly the lorries were taken off the road.
 

slowmotion

Quite dreadful
Location
lost somewhere
The construction industry works at a brisk pace. Lots of muck-away tippers zipping about, skip trucks too. There is CrossRail, there is that new Sewer thing, and perhaps that HS2 bonkers madness to look forward to. I always thought that Tooley Street was some kind of "Death Alley" during the build up to the Olympics. Horrid. I think that there might be a change in lorry operators' attitude. I'm not entirely gloomy.
 
Boris is first and foremost a politician, necessarily compromised by the people who bend politicians' ears in this country. Freight and construction representatives donated £2m to the tories in 2011, Boris has two representatives of cabbies on the TFL board, he's not going to do anything silly like upset the powerful people who fund his party or decide transport policy in the capital.
 

Leodis

Veteran
Location
Moortown, Leeds
It was good to come down and take part in this. The focus is on London and the spate of recent deaths there but in the same period another five cyclists were killed across the country. Where the smoke goes, the rest of the country follows. It was important to add a body to the numbers for the sake of making UK roads fit for people.

Ste, the issue is that the rest of UK cycling are trying to make the UK roads safer whereas London cyclists are looking after their own. I am sick to death of reading London related issues on CC.Road, even when a cyclist was killed in a hit and run in Harrogate they ignored this and kept on with the same old shite from Boris the twat.
 
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