Supermarket fuel, false economy..?

[tyred]

Ah we will miss these conversations when we are all on electric cars.

Does cheap copper cable allow the same charge rate as fancy cable at ten times the price

 

[Arrowfoot]

RON is not a measure of quality, it is a measure of resistance to preignition. Yes, all 'regular' road fuel has to be at least 95 RON - there's no specific target for 'premium' fuels so you'll see 97, 98, 99 etc dependent on supplier but a higher RON is not necessarily a higher quality. Petrol must meet BS EN 228, which defines a level of RON and various quality limits (for diesel it's BS EN 590 and cetane number).

Fuel is made up of a base fuel mix, which is refined and blended to hit the RON, and then an additive package. The amount and type of additive varies between brands - there are things like antifoam, stabilisers, ignition improvers, octane improvers, detergents etc but not all brands have all of them or at the same levels. Your tanker driver will not know what additives are in the fuel being delivered.

The base fuel comes from the same refineries, yes - there are only a limited number of them around - plus the requisite amount of ethanol or FAME (petrol or diesel). But the additives come from various suppliers and their formulations are specific and proprietary to each brand.

It's like a cup of coffee - the water is the main thing and comes from the same source, but then you can either spoon some instant granules into it or you can run it through finely ground beans at the correct pressure and temperature for the right amount of time. The water is the same, the coffee is not.

Just talk to the tank driver If the same fuel is delivered to the supermarkets.

 

[figbat]

So are you saying that the tanker loads up with fuel at the refinery, then at each filling station, puts in appropriate additives for the brand as they are unloading?

Somehow I don't think so.

Where a tanker only delivers one brand of fuel, yes, it can be the one with the additives for that brand, and will be loaded from a brand specific tank at the refinery.

But arrowfoot above is talking about the situation where one tanker, with one load of fuel, delivers to several different forecourts, some being branded, some being supermarket. In those cases, it is the same fuel going into each forecourt tank.

No. Fuel is pumped in a ‘raw’ state to distribution terminals. The delivery tankers collect it from there. The additives are dosed into the fuel as it is loaded into the trucks; the dosages are very small and the additives are easily dispersed in the low viscosity fuel as it churns into the tank. Fuel tankers are typically compartmentalised and therefore carry more than one fuel. These can then be delivered as demanded at multiple locations.

 

[Tail End Charlie]

No. Fuel is pumped in a ‘raw’ state to distribution terminals. The delivery tankers collect it from there. The additives are dosed into the fuel as it is loaded into the trucks; the dosages are very small and the additives are easily dispersed in the low viscosity fuel as it churns into the tank. Fuel tankers are typically compartmentalised and therefore carry more than one fuel. These can then be delivered as demanded at multiple locations.

Ah, so is that why tankers often have three or four outlet pipe things on them? I've often wondered why that was, hadn't considered compartments.

 

[gbb]

injectors were mentioned up post.
Modern cars injection systems, particularly Direct injection are very high pressure and reliant on clean good quality fuel. Poor quality petrol will cause injector wear or issues
E10 or E5 ?, I wouldn't have thought would matter, but quality of either would.
In the real world though , how would you ever know which actually was good or bad.

 

[byegad]

Back in the 1960s ICI on teesside started selling petrol at their own petrol stations. It was straight from the cracking process, no fancy additives and it was cheap. My dad tried some in his Ford Anglia, and it pinked like mad. Refilled next time with Shell it ran without issues.

I suspect these days, while there may be a difference between brands it won't be by much. My Corolla hybrid shows no discernible difference in mpg using E5 or E10 from the same garage.

 

[wafter]

injectors were mentioned up post.
Modern cars injection systems, particularly Direct injection are very high pressure and reliant on clean good quality fuel. Poor quality petrol will cause injector wear or issues
E10 or E5 ?, I wouldn't have thought would matter, but quality of either would.
In the real world though , how would you ever know which actually was good or bad.

Not sure about injector wear, but fouling will likely be another one potential issue as "varnish" deposits will affect injector spray pattern / droplet size and potentially impact efficiency as a result.

 

[figbat]

Not sure about injector wear, but fouling will likely be another one potential issue as "varnish" deposits will affect injector spray pattern / droplet size and potentially impact efficiency as a result.

Yep. I have seen the results of running the same engine on two different fuels over the same conditions. The engine was a V block and it was modified so that one bank received ‘normal’ fuel and the other received the premium fuel with cleaning technology - the car was then driven over a range of conditions. Using an endoscope you see a huge difference in injector and intake valve cleanliness. This was a port-injected petrol engine.

With diesels the injector cleanliness is even more important and again I have seen how fuel quality can impact nozzle cleanliness - using an SEM you can get some great images of the tiny nozzle holes and how deposits build around them.

 

[gbb]

Does your average tanker driver really ever fill two different stations from the same tanker ?
We used to get tankers of red diesel, 22,000 litrs IIRC, 5000 gallons

Not sure about injector wear, but fouling will likely be another one potential issue as "varnish" deposits will affect injector spray pattern / droplet size and potentially impact efficiency as a result.

I used the term wear...your post puts in in words i couldnt find at that moment

 

[wafter]

Yep. I have seen the results of running the same engine on two different fuels over the same conditions. The engine was a V block and it was modified so that one bank received ‘normal’ fuel and the other received the premium fuel with cleaning technology - the car was then driven over a range of conditions. Using an endoscope you see a huge difference in injector and intake valve cleanliness. This was a port-injected petrol engine.

With diesels the injector cleanliness is even more important and again I have seen how fuel quality can impact nozzle cleanliness - using an SEM you can get some great images of the tiny nozzle holes and how deposits build around them.

Sounds very interesting and the sort of thing I should have been employed to do were I able to apply myself to anything...

I believe common rail diesel stuff runs silly injector pressures and hence requires very small nozzles so yes; I imagine cleanliness is potentially even more important in this application.

Seems you get to play with all manner of interesting toys

 

[Alex321]

Does your average tanker driver really ever fill two different stations from the same tanker ?
We used to get tankers of red diesel, 22,000 litrs IIRC, 5000 gallons

Well according to this video, tankers usually have a capacity of 36,000-40,000 litres, so that is a fair amount more than you would receive.

And from a Guardian article:
"
Shell's fleet of 175 tankers normally make 600-700 deliveries a day to 1,100 filling stations nationwide. Only 30 of them had petrol by yesterday morning.

Esso normally delivers 700 tanker loads a day to 1,620 garages, "

So the Esso tankers are delivering to an average of a bit more than 2 garages per load. The shell tankers delivering to 5-6 garages each per day, but that will be several loads.

What I'm not sure of is how many tankers will deliver to both branded filling stations AND supermarket filling stations (whether in a single load or not).

Some of the supermarkets have their own fleet (I have certainly seen both Tesco and Asda liveried tankers on the road), and the big brands such as BP, Esso, Shell also have their own fleets. I don't know whether any of them also use other tanker operators, or whether that is just the independent forecourts who do (and for that matter, I think the supermarket liveried tankers may actually be operated by companies such as Hoyer).

 

[figbat]

Seems you get to play with all manner of interesting toys

You have no idea! I spent a number of years working with ships’ engines - those were really interesting.

 

[gbb]

Well according to this video, tankers usually have a capacity of 36,000-40,000 litres, so that is a fair amount more than you would receive.

And from a Guardian article:
"
Shell's fleet of 175 tankers normally make 600-700 deliveries a day to 1,100 filling stations nationwide. Only 30 of them had petrol by yesterday morning.

Esso normally delivers 700 tanker loads a day to 1,620 garages, "

So the Esso tankers are delivering to an average of a bit more than 2 garages per load. The shell tankers delivering to 5-6 garages each per day, but that will be several loads.

What I'm not sure of is how many tankers will deliver to both branded filling stations AND supermarket filling stations (whether in a single load or not).

Some of the supermarkets have their own fleet (I have certainly seen both Tesco and Asda liveried tankers on the road), and the big brands such as BP, Esso, Shell also have their own fleets. I don't know whether any of them also use other tanker operators, or whether that is just the independent forecourts who do (and for that matter, I think the supermarket liveried tankers may actually be operated by companies such as Hoyer).

Ironically,i was asking myself the question and writing as I did, I paused, went off to do some research and must have pressed Post Reply without realising it. I soon realised our 5000gallon loads were indeed probably part loads...you confirm it (where's my thumbs up emoticon ? )

 

[Brandane]

Some of the supermarkets have their own fleet (I have certainly seen both Tesco and Asda liveried tankers on the road), and the big brands such as BP, Esso, Shell also have their own fleets.

Ex lorry driver here! The livery on tankers and other HGV'S quite often has no bearing on who the operator is. Big companies will sub contract their delivery operations to the likes of Hoyer (stands for Hand Over Your Employment Rights in the industry!), Stobart, DHL, Norbert Dentressangle etc.. Part of the contract might require that vehicles are painted in the customer's livery, but there might be a small sticker placed inconspicuously saying "operated by DHL" or whoever.

I know that Sainsbury's RDC at East Kilbride is/was operated by DHL. You would never know it by looking at their lorries. Similarly, Morrison's at Bellshill was a Norbert Dentressangle operation. Stobart and Tesco are also bed buddies, as are Hoyer and Shell tankers.

NB... Compartments in tankers are required for reasons other than separating types of fuel. Imagine if the tank was just one big unit with no separation. First time the driver hit the brakes with a load of fuel weighing 20+ tonnes all of it moving forwards at 50 mph? The result would not be pretty!

 

[DaveReading]

Does cheap copper cable allow the same charge rate as fancy cable at ten times the price

Hi-Fi buffs will swear that the more expensive the speak cable is, the better the sound ...