Stand lights at railway stations (Dynamo and eBikes)

[Gwylan]

A train driver wont foxtrot about. They wont stare at a light and waste time trying to see what it is. No, theyll ram on the brakes (which can cause inconvenience, expense, and danger all of its own) and ask questions after the event.

There was a recent thread on this by someone who was highly indignant they'd been asked to switch off their bike light in rail premises, and who then iced the cake with a bevy of public order and rail premises offences as they first argued with and then tried to force their way past rail staff. The consensus was that they were a selfish chump of the first water.

The penalties are quite serious, as are the penalties for gobbing off at or, even worse, using force against rail staff who try and enforce the rules.

It ain't negotiable, the rules are clear, and there is zero justification for not doing exactly as you're bloody well told in an environment with such huge capacity for danger. I'm surprised anyone would even think it appropriate to question this.

It's not the penalties it's the consequences.

There's a regulation, seems quite a good m, sensible one. Railway staff are obliged to observe it and ask us to observe it.

They could just chuck us off the premises and call their police.

 

[Ming the Merciless]

Train driver: "I need to see

Good job he doesn’t drive a car on the road, god knows how he’d cope with car headlights a thousand times brighter than a 3W dynamo light in stand light mode.

 

[lazybloke]

My dynamo has no standlight. I have a cheap black purse on a carabiner next to the rear light that covers it quickly and without any fuss.

Uhm... if it has no standlight, why do you need to cover it?

 

[glasgowcyclist]

Uhm... if it has no standlight, why do you need to cover it?

Even if it's only being wheeled, it can still be generating enough power to show a red light.

 

[alicat]

^^^^^

 

[Boopop]

I feel like a bit of a dunce now, my front light does actually have a power switch, which presumably/hopefully switches off the rear light too.

I wasn't too fond of being told "you're the reason people hate cyclists" (which I disagree with as a notion anyway). I totally understand the reasoning, and it was a genuine question on reddit. I suppose it shouldn't come as a surprise that people are quick to think the worst of people online rather than the best. Yes I'm a delicate flower!

Doesn't solve the problem with my eBike though, which still has its standlight on even if I remove the battery. presumably there's a capacitor in the light itself so I couldn't even "just" unplug it.

EDIT: Was wondering why that thread @Ajax Bay linked to got closed. Maybe @Pat "5mph" wants to close this thread too? Fine with me!

 

[glasgowcyclist]

presumably there's a capacitor in the light itself so I couldn't even "just" unplug it.

Are you certain there isn’t a way to discharge it? On mine it’s discharged by pushing a red plastic tab which doesn’t really look like a typical switch or button.

 

[oldandslow]

My Brompton has this issue, as I believe do many. There's one switch, on the front light. That does not turn off the rear light, which takes longer to discharge than is typically needed to reach the platform. I tend to try to fold it with the light hidden or against a wall or something.

It feels like designers not really thinking things through. The bike's meant for taking on trains. Standlights are great for traffic lights, but being able to turn them off is important.

 

[Ajax Bay]

I have looked in vain for byelaws prohibiting red lights (of whatever source) on railway platforms.
Quite clear that random red lights with clear potential to confuse and create an unsafe situation is a hazard to be eliminated.
Link to byelaws (and para/page) anyone?
Nothing here: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/railway-byelaws/railway-byelaws
This from a CamCycle article from 2010:
"If you ever have reason to take a bicycle on a railway platform, make absolutely sure that all lights, particularly RED lights, are OFF. If your rear light is a standlight with no off switch, cover it securely. It is a serious breach of railway by-laws to display a spurious red light on or alongside the track, and can cause major disruption to services."

 

[mjr]

I have looked in vain for byelaws prohibiting red lights (of whatever source) on railway platforms.
Quite clear that random red lights with clear potential to confuse and create an unsafe situation is a hazard to be eliminated.
Link to byelaws (and para/page) anyone?
Nothing here: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/railway-byelaws/railway-byelaws
This from a CamCycle article from 2010:
"If you ever have reason to take a bicycle on a railway platform, make absolutely sure that all lights, particularly RED lights, are OFF. If your rear light is a standlight with no off switch, cover it securely. It is a serious breach of railway by-laws to display a spurious red light on or alongside the track, and can cause major disruption to services."

I suspect it might be against 11(1) to stop a train or 11(3) to activate a railway emergency or communication system. And it's against 12(2) not to comply with a railway worker's safety instructions.

 

[Ajax Bay]

If this is actually an 'issue' you'd think it'd be directly addressed. And the issue communicated directly. Searching struggles to find this (only found the Cam Cycle article after a variety of search word combos).
To reiterate I am "quite clear that random red lights with clear potential to confuse and create an unsafe situation is a hazard to be eliminated."
As for 11(1), 11(3) and 12(2):
11(1) clearly seeks to proscribe physical actions (see the operative verbs).
11(3) addresses emergency cords/handles/buttons: emergency or communications systems provided for use.
12(2) requires instructions in an emergency (really) to be obeyed but depends on the railway person to make judgements (believes) about what is a safety issue. If this issue is straightforward, shouldn't be simply addressed in the Byelaws?

11. General safety​

No person shall:

1. move, operate, obstruct, stop or in any other way interfere with any automatic closing door, train, or any other equipment on the railway except:
   1. in an emergency, by means of any equipment on or near which there is a notice indicating that it is intended to be used in an emergency or
   2. any equipment intended for the use of passengers in that way in normal operating circumstances
2. place, throw, drop or trail anything on the railway which is capable of injuring, damaging or endangering any person or any property
3. without reasonable cause, activate any emergency system and/or any communications system provided on any part of the railway including a train

12. Safety instructions

1. an operator may issue reasonable instructions relating to safety on any part of the railway by means of a notice on or near that part of the railway. No person shall, without good cause, disobey such notice
2. an authorised person may, in an emergency or in other circumstances in which he believes he should act in the interests of safety, issue instructions to any person on the railway. No person shall, without good cause, disobey such instructions

 

[Dogtrousers]

Doesn't solve the problem with my eBike though, which still has its standlight on even if I remove the battery. presumably there's a capacitor in the light itself so I couldn't even "just" unplug it.

@alicat has a solution

I have a cheap black purse on a carabiner next to the rear light that covers it quickly and without any fuss.

Simples

 

[classic33]

If this is actually an 'issue' you'd think it'd be directly addressed. And the issue communicated directly. Searching struggles to find this (only found the Cam Cycle article after a variety of search word combos).
To reiterate I am "quite clear that random red lights with clear potential to confuse and create an unsafe situation is a hazard to be eliminated."
As for 11(1), 11(3) and 12(2):
11(1) clearly seeks to proscribe physical actions (see the operative verbs).
11(3) addresses emergency cords/handles/buttons: emergency or communications systems provided for use.
12(2) requires instructions in an emergency (really) to be obeyed but depends on the railway person to make judgements (believes) about what is a safety issue. If this issue is straightforward, shouldn't be simply addressed in the Byelaws?

11. General safety​

No person shall:

1. move, operate, obstruct, stop or in any other way interfere with any automatic closing door, train, or any other equipment on the railway except:
   1. in an emergency, by means of any equipment on or near which there is a notice indicating that it is intended to be used in an emergency or
   2. any equipment intended for the use of passengers in that way in normal operating circumstances
2. place, throw, drop or trail anything on the railway which is capable of injuring, damaging or endangering any person or any property
3. without reasonable cause, activate any emergency system and/or any communications system provided on any part of the railway including a train

12. Safety instructions

1. an operator may issue reasonable instructions relating to safety on any part of the railway by means of a notice on or near that part of the railway. No person shall, without good cause, disobey such notice
2. an authorised person may, in an emergency or in other circumstances in which he believes he should act in the interests of safety, issue instructions to any person on the railway. No person shall, without good cause, disobey such instructions

The actual piece dates back to the days of "The Big Four". When communication relied on lights a lot more than today.
The lights today are a secondary, failsafe system. No longer are they the primary system, instructions passed to the drivers by radio/computer.

 

[mjr]

11(1) clearly seeks to proscribe physical actions (see the operative verbs).

Oh I'm sorry, I thought we were discussing physical lights stopping physical trains, not theoretical lights stopping metaphorical train(!)

11(3) addresses emergency cords/handles/buttons: emergency or communications systems provided for use.

So you think the colour light signalling system isn't provided? Maybe that it was always there and they just built railways to use it?

12(2) requires instructions in an emergency (really) to be obeyed but [...]

"or in other circumstances" too.

I don't know why it isn't more explicitly in the byelaws or rules. Probably they thought it was obvious you don't go waving colourful lights by a colour-signalled railway and didn't expect anyone to argue the toss about it.

 

[Time Waster]

Red lights are used all the time to signal the driver to stop. There is one at each end of most platforms to this day. They are on those signals that go up and down to signal whether it is safe to procede. If you have ever travelled on trains in the driver's cabin then you will see that the up or down position of the signals are not visible in the dark but the red light is.

So you see a red light from a distance on a platform and if you are a train driver trained to understand the red light secondary system you will stop. Most likely call to find out what the situation is. Unless you can see the red light is on a bike operated by and idiot who knows nothing about railway safety or who does not care about it as their right to a red light on a bike is more important than railway safety.

Sorry for being argumentative or short on this. You do not need to know the ins and outs of the red light near railway lines. you just have to know that it is an issue and you are responsible for your rear, red light being visible or not. It is the railway staff to inform you of the issue if they see it and are actually there to see it. It is then your responsibility to comply or risk being expelled and possibly arrested. To keep it simple, if a railway worker tells you to turn your red light off or cover it up to render it not visible do it! Do not argue or otherwise give the impression of being diffiuclt, obstructive, aggressive or other. Rail staff do get attacked more frequently than is acceptable and there has always been short shrift paid to attitude like that.

i come from a railway family and get a bit annoyed with prattish behaviour such as arguing about the red light issue. I have no time for that arguing the toss over it. I doubt any railworker would or BTP would neither.