So how would you clean up pro racing?

[Smokin Joe]

The only effective anti-doping measures are those where the rider has a better than evens chance of getting found out. Increased penalties are ineffective because if athletes are willing to risk their lives by ingesting chemicals they know can cause early death the threat of a ban for however long is not going to stop them.

Criminals in all walks of life have always weighed up the risk of getting caught rather than the consequences of being caught.

 

[Noodley]

Interesting article here:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/vroomen-on-doping-the-media-basso-and-schleck

 

[Smokin Joe]

[QUOTE 1405593"]
Lifetime bans, for a first offence. 1 appeal, it must be delivered in 3 minutes. After that, the guilty rider is handed down a lifetime ban from all sport. No sportives, no 5 a-side for the office team, nothing.

Whenever this comes up, Millar is held up as an example of how people can change and how he deserved a second chance. Yet, the very same people witter on and on how Lance is a cheating so and so! Armstrong has never tested positive or served a ban, Millar has. He should no longer be riding and earning a living from cycling or any sport.

However, back in the real world, it can never be cleaned up. There will always be people searching for that tiny advantage, chemicals, friction free skinsuits, aerobars. It used to be amphetamines and a couple of brandys. The only hope is catch the occasional doper, and chuck them out forever. At least it'll be one less.

It's depressing really, when I speak to some of my colleagues and friends about cycling, they generally know two things, Lance Armstrong and lots of drug use
[/quote]
Legally impossible to enforce.

 

[Flying_Monkey]

[QUOTE 1405593"]
Whenever this comes up, Millar is held up as an example of how people can change and how he deserved a second chance. Yet, the very same people witter on and on how Lance is a cheating so and so! Armstrong has never tested positive or served a ban, Millar has. He should no longer be riding and earning a living from cycling or any sport.
[/quote]

It's pretty obvious why. It's because Armstrong has blatantly got away with it, and has been basically laughing at his accusers. Millar on the other hand, got caught, admitted it, did his time, and more importantly than anything else admitted he was wrong and has done an awful lot since to bring attention to the problem.

Armstrong is precisely the reason why concentrating on punishment misses the point entirely.

 

[rich p]

I suspect that the eye-witness evidence of his peers, the masses of circumstantial evidence along with the positive tests will carry more weight than FM's 'investigation'!

For what it's worth, I have read masses of evidence over the last many years which persuaded me that Armstrong was guilty of doping. It doesn't have to convince a court of law but it was enough for me to lose faith in him. The weight of evidence is such that it seems to me that those who believe him to be clean will never been convinced or will say that it was forgiveable since they were all at it.

 

[GrumpyGregry]

I suspect that the eye-witness evidence of his peers, the masses of circumstantial evidence along with the positive tests will carry more weight than FM's 'investigation'!

For what it's worth, I have read masses of evidence over the last many years which persuaded me that Armstrong was guilty of doping. It doesn't have to convince a court of law but it was enough for me to lose faith in him. The weight of evidence is such that it seems to me that those who believe him to be clean will never been convinced or will say that it was forgiveable since they were all at it.

I'm with rich p on this nowadays. It just took me a lot longer to get there.

 

[Flying_Monkey]

[QUOTE 1405597"]
So FM, lay it on the line, show the world your evidence and make millions.
[/quote]

Don't be ridiculous.

 

[rich p]

[QUOTE 1405602"]
Just to clarify, if they charge him, and he is found to have been at it, I will be at the head of the queue calling for him to be stripped of his titles, heavily fined and be banned from entering any sporting event, ever, anywhere. Zero tolerance should be set at absolute zero.

If you get caught, and cough to it after, tough. You've been caught, tell us all you know, then get lost.
[/quote]

Yes, but our vote doesn't actually count so we are free to speculate.

I agree that LA is innocent until proven guilty as far as the authorities are concerned and that is as it should be. I have, however, read all the 'evidence' and come to a conclusion that satisfies me.

Have you read it all and are still undecided as to his guilt?

Incidentally, does your zero tolerance approach include Contador for the positive clenbuterol or Armstrong's positive when he was given a post facto sicknote for cortisone?

 

[GrumpyGregry]

[QUOTE 1405601"]
FM, don't get all tetchy. I am not being ridiculous, merely pointing out that if the UCI, ASO, WADA or you had enough evidence, then Armstrong would be stripped of his titles before you could say maillot jeune. Let's face it, enough people want to show him up as a fraud, but they can't get the eveidence. So he hasn't been charged because no-one has enough credible evidence to bring the charges.

Unfortunately then, as things stand, and as much as you, Rich, Greg and others may not like it, Mr Armstrong remains an innocent multiple tour winner, and Mr Millar remains a lying, cheating performance enhancing low-life.

I am no particular fan of Armstrong, but I do find it baffling that Millar is held up as a beacon of proberty and worthy of a second chance, when Landis, Vinokourov, Hamilton et al are figures of ridicule, despite giving the authorities a damn site more to go on than Millar has ever done.
[/quote]

David Millar appeals to a certain anglo-saxon sense of fair play. and cycling is not short on hypocrisy. and when the current crop of brit stars are found to have a taint about them, as some of them surely will, nothing provable beyond reasonable doubt for sure but......, what will we all say then?

 

[Smokin Joe]

[QUOTE 1405601"]

Unfortunately then, as things stand, and as much as you, Rich, Greg and others may not like it, Mr Armstrong remains an innocent multiple tour winner, and Mr Millar remains a lying, cheating performance enhancing low-life.

[/quote]
So what's your take on Armstrong's 1999 samples which were found to contain evidence of EPO use when tested using techniques not available then?

 

[BJH]

[QUOTE 1405601"]
FM, don't get all tetchy. I am not being ridiculous, merely pointing out that if the UCI, ASO, WADA or you had enough evidence, then Armstrong would be stripped of his titles before you could say maillot jeune. Let's face it, enough people want to show him up as a fraud, but they can't get the eveidence. So he hasn't been charged because no-one has enough credible evidence to bring the charges.

Unfortunately then, as things stand, and as much as you, Rich, Greg and others may not like it, Mr Armstrong remains an innocent multiple tour winner, and Mr Millar remains a lying, cheating performance enhancing low-life.

I am no particular fan of Armstrong, but I do find it baffling that Millar is held up as a beacon of proberty and worthy of a second chance, when Landis, Vinokourov, Hamilton et al are figures of ridicule, despite giving the authorities a damn site more to go on than Millar has ever done.
[/quote]

Without wishing to come across as a major conspiracy theorist, I don't think it is in the interests of the UCI to see LA found guilty. When this finally blows open, it could be enough to cause serious harm to the sport, effectively destroying a large part of the official history. Would the UCI really like to see that while explaining some questions about why they accepted money from him and just why were LA and JB meeting the head of a testing lab to ask about procedures.

On Millar - I sympathise with your position. I don't think he has done enough. His performances now in the twighlight of his career have been really good. What concerns me is attitude described by Paul Kimmage - it doesn't come across as someone who is willing to tell all.

For Landis and Hamilton - yes, they are convicted liars. But just because your a convicted liar, does not mean that you never tell the truth. I don't believe that an impending book deal has led either of them to say what they are saying now. We are talking here about 2 former team mates who have testified to a grand jury under oath and are very aware of the consequences.

My guess is that just like Jack warner resigning from FIFA today which means all charges are dropped, the UCI would love to sweep all of this under the carpet. I don't think they can. LA has already given evidence in court to deny doping to win the case against the insurance company many years ago. With a million dollars at stake, they must also be watching like vultures at the moment, so this is going to run right up until it explodes!

 

[Noodley]

I was just having a read of the team rosters ahead of the TdeF and must say I was surprised at how many known supporters of doping or ex-dopers were still on the management side of the teams. Until that changes then I'm afraid we'll always have it - I know people can change (Madiot for example) but the majority of those still in the sport have shown litle evidence of this.

 

[dellzeqq]

David Millar appeals to a certain anglo-saxon sense of fair play. and cycling is not short on hypocrisy. and when the current crop of brit stars are found to have a taint about them, as some of them surely will, nothing provable beyond reasonable doubt for sure but......, what will we all say then?

I guress that we'll say that it's sad, but that the law is the law.

I wonder what Greg Lemond is thinking now? He said Armstrong was dirty back in 2001, and endured all kinds of grief as a result.