So how would you clean up pro racing?

[Adasta]

Could the limits of what are considering "illegal amounts" of banned substance in the body not just be raised? To something like 1g or 2g or some other "reasonable" amount? It seems odd to penalise people on infinitesimally small amounts of some substance or other being present in their bodies.

 

[philipbh]

amateurs/juniors/minors in other sports often play within different rules/laws, often designed to mitigate the risk they are exposed to by their very taking part. why can't cycling be the same?

So you would advocate allowing only Robinson's Barley water in the bidons of the amateur and prescribe the electric juice for pro use only?

 

[GrumpyGregry]

So you would advocate allowing only Robinson's Barley water in the bidons of the amateur and prescribe the electric juice for pro use only?

More or less yes. But honestly I would not have a huge problem with amateur adults using technology to give themselves an edge if they choose so to do provided minors are protected. I'm pretty sure some do anyway!

 

[philipbh]

More or less yes. But honestly I would not have a huge problem with amateur adults using technology to give themselves an edge if they choose so to do provided minors are protected. I'm pretty sure some do anyway!

Which brings us to the Hein Verbruggen solution he was advocating c. 1997 - safe limits ( as Adasta alluded to above)

 

[Will1985]

Could the limits of what are considering "illegal amounts" of banned substance in the body not just be raised? To something like 1g or 2g or some other "reasonable" amount? It seems odd to penalise people on infinitesimally small amounts of some substance or other being present in their bodies.

Maybe for some things yes, but there are also other metabolites of drugs which do not occur naturally in the human body, so the limits should be zero. If athletes have a beef with that they should pay attention to what enters their body

 

[yello]

If athletes have a beef with that they should pay attention to what enters their body

Easier said then done. To be fair, they can't know with 100% certainty, they take a great deal on trust. They are cyclists after all; not nutritionists or chemists or biologists... or whoever knows these things!

But I would say that zero is a number too. Why set the 'acceptable quantity at 1 thingy per thingy (or whatever) when that has to be measured too. That is, what happens if someone gets an infinitesimally small amount above 1?

I think if you adopt 'zero tolerance' testing then you have to accept the possibility of punishing the innocent. Maybe that's acceptable though. Dunno, I feel uneasy about it but maybe needs must.

 

[Flying_Monkey]

Easier said then done. To be fair, they can't know with 100% certainty, they take a great deal on trust. They are cyclists after all; not nutritionists or chemists or biologists... or whoever knows these things!

But I would say that zero is a number too. Why set the 'acceptable quantity at 1 thingy per thingy (or whatever) when that has to be measured too. That is, what happens if someone gets an infinitesimally small amount above 1?

I think if you adopt 'zero tolerance' testing then you have to accept the possibility of punishing the innocent. Maybe that's acceptable though. Dunno, I feel uneasy about it but maybe needs must.

This is why starting early with the biological passport (and improving it), and using this as a basis for health-based decisions, is better than 'zero tolerance' testing.

 

[yello]

I'm a big fan of the biological passport. I do think it's the way to go.

 

[philipbh]

This is why starting early with the biological passport (and improving it), and using this as a basis for health-based decisions, is better than 'zero tolerance' testing.

Really ?

There is no natural background level of Clenbutarol - presence of it blood / urine samples if evidence (if not proof) of irregularities - if not prescribed for its normal therapeutic use

Surely, there must be a balance between abnormal levels of natural phenomena (e.g. haematocrit) and any level of abnormal substance detection?

 

[Flying_Monkey]

Really ?

There is no natural background level of Clenbutarol - presence of it blood / urine samples if evidence (if not proof) of irregularities - if not prescribed for its normal therapeutic use

Surely, there must be a balance between abnormal levels of natural phenomena (e.g. haematocrit) and any level of abnormal substance detection?

So, logically, the biological passport level of clenbutarol would be 'zero'. That's not the same as an overall zero tolerance approach. The other thing is that many drugs do not have tests that directly detect the substance in question, but detect breakdown products and effects, many of which can also be 'natural'. So the biological passport approach makes the best overall sense. Of course you need to test to acquire readings to compare to the passport, so I am not suggesting 'no testing'.

 

[philipbh]

For the benefit of the group - here is an extract from Herbie Sykes new book Maglia Rosa - his views on the Italian approach / general doping in cycling

http://rouleurmagazine.wordpress.com/2011/05/26/600/

 

[david k]

I wouldn't. I'd bring them all together in a large marquee and say "Well chaps, seeing as you are all at it like knives, from today, anything goes. Dope away. Nay bother. We've lost the battle and the war. If you want to kill yourself, go ahead, after all it will sell cycling magazines and newspapers and TV adverts if you do and make me even more millions of € than it does today."

yeh agree, at least its an even playing field

could then dvertise a clean tour for the rest, over time theyd all move over

 

[david k]

they do it in body building

 

[Smokin Joe]

yeh agree, at least its an even playing field

could then dvertise a clean tour for the rest, over time theyd all move over

Are you serious, two TdF each year, one for dopers and one for clean riders?

Think it through properly and you will see how ridiculous the idea is.

 

[philipbh]

Are you serious, two TdF each year, one for dopers and one for clean riders?

No need for two - just the one

Formula 1 had a two tier system for a season or two - Turbo Charged and Normally Aspirated competing on the same track

(just kidding of course, it would never work)