So how would you clean up pro racing?

[Peter91]

sorry if this is the wrong section, i'm still a bit new
There's been lots of talk on here about doping in cycling and how tests don't work, people can take micro doses, bribing officials etc etc, and it's rather put me off watching the tours. But how would you actually clean up the sport? Imagine for example you're in-charge of the TdF, how do you make sure all the riders are clean?

 

[GrumpyGregry]

I wouldn't. I'd bring them all together in a large marquee and say "Well chaps, seeing as you are all at it like knives, from today, anything goes. Dope away. Nay bother. We've lost the battle and the war. If you want to kill yourself, go ahead, after all it will sell cycling magazines and newspapers and TV adverts if you do and make me even more millions of € than it does today."

 

[yello]

Theoretically, it could end in an instant. IF everyone stopped doping, but I suspect that's the only way it'd ever stop completely.

Because, practically, I suspect doping will never go away. It will only ever become a more manageable problem. Almost by default, tests are behind doping practice (you can only test for something you know exists) so testing is always destined to be somewhat of a catch-up game. That is why the blood passport, despite it's faults, is a way forward. Imho at least.

The same applies to other sports btw. It's not just cyclists that dope. Cycling just has more of a reputation for it and, I think, is one of the more active sports (vocally at least) in doing something about it.

 

[oliglynn]

I wouldn't. I'd bring them all together in a large marquee and say "Well chaps, seeing as you are all at it like knives, from today, anything goes. Dope away. Nay bother. We've lost the battle and the war. If you want to kill yourself, go ahead, after all it will sell cycling magazines and newspapers and TV adverts if you do and make me even more millions of € than it does today."

Hah - great idea! I mean, they do say that any publicity is good publicity...

I think it'd be a lot more fun watching an unashamed vein popping drug-fuelled frenzy of a tour, with on-the-go blood transfusions, riders ODing on steroids and going postal, crazy podium celebrations and debauched night-time antics inbetween stages!

 

[philipbh]

I wouldn't. I'd bring them all together in a large marquee and say "Well chaps, seeing as you are all at it like knives, from today, anything goes. Dope away. Nay bother. We've lost the battle and the war. If you want to kill yourself, go ahead, after all it will sell cycling magazines and newspapers and TV adverts if you do and make me even more millions of € than it does today."

The argument against [see Dick Pound, former president of WADA, quoted in Whittle (2009) ] is that it would affect the sport lower down the ranks with "the abandonment of all ethical and moral responsibility"

He suggests that 14 / 15 year olds entering the sport would be hoovering up industrial quantities of PED's in the search of fame and fortune and / or their parents would suggest they took up other sports that didn't require tacit mandatory use of PED's

Surely (?) the answer would be to have a tougher testing regime and if caught receive an instant lifetime ban - assuming the evidence was categorical vs circumstantial

 

[Peter91]

Dick Pound

 

[philipbh]

Ironic he should campaign against self abuse

 

[GrumpyGregry]

The argument against [see Dick Pound, former president of WADA, quoted in Whittle (2009) ] is that it would affect the sport lower down the ranks with "the abandonment of all ethical and moral responsibility"

He suggests that 14 / 15 year olds entering the sport would be hoovering up industrial quantities of PED's in the search of fame and fortune and / or their parents would suggest they took up other sports that didn't require tacit mandatory use of PED's

Putting aside the protection of minors and other vulnerable people, does professional sport have ethical and moral responsibilities, over and above legal ones, towards society? I'm not sure it does, and if it does it is doing a lousy job of living up to them.

 

[philipbh]

Putting aside the protection of minors and other vulnerable people, does professional sport have ethical and moral responsibilities, over and above legal ones, towards society? I'm not sure it does, and if it does it is doing a lousy job of living up to them.

Insofar as sports people are used as / become role models - then I would say that it does.

(Super injunctions aside)

 

[Flying_Monkey]

Unfortunately we can't 'put aside' the question of minors and the vulnerable, because that's the starting point and the baseline for the culture of professional sport.

You have to start as you mean to go on.

I think the biological passport is a good development. It's not perfect yet, and one reason we see it still being abused and not working as well as it will is because the generational shift that should occur with its use over time has not yet taken place. Many cyclists in the upper echelons of the sport already had an unrealistic biological baseline, and younger riders who were not able to abuse the system when young should gradually change this culture over time.

 

[yello]

does professional sport have ethical and moral responsibilities, over and above legal ones, towards society?

As much as any ethical or moral organisation does, yes, I'd say sports do to. But that's dangerously close to a catch 22 statement. And it is a loaded question.

The nature of the ethical and moral is that they are, in some sense, ethically and morally defined. That is, nothing definitive, nothing statute like and so open to conjecture. It is a very simple cop out for any organisation for say that they have no such responsibility because, in fact or by law, they don't. Nothing codified in detail and to the letter. Just a general public expectation.

Business organisations do operate much more freely from such degrees of expectation and perhaps with a higher degree of literal rule following in respect to matters ethical and moral. That is to say, one is not stunned if XYZ Inc. acts in a manner that some would consider unethical, so long as it's not illegal. Disgusted perhaps but not overly surprised.

Professional sport operates in a kind of twilight zone methinks. The general public thinks 'sport', with all of the associated notions of fair play etc that that encompasses. Whereas the organisation itself, and to some extent the athletes, thinks in terms of business.

Perhaps you're right. Perhaps punters should not expect Corinthian values from the business of sport.

 

[oldroadman]

Start from the premise that professional sport is a business, which it is. We want it clean. Cycling is prepared to wash dirty linen very publicly, and the peloton is probably cleaner now than for decades. Just keep the testing and bio-passport going.
Then maybe look at the governance of sports where they "don't have a problem" and check for the big brushes. That's for sweeping things under the carpet, because it's bad for business for people to find out x player in y big money/profile sport that has lots of TV time has been "at it".
Then look at examples, when certain footy players get into fights in nightclubs in the early hours, during their season, what are the doing there? Professional athletes? Never mind, the press report it as letting off steam. One interesting thing, Ryan Giggs has lasted a very long time in a tough position, and looked after himself quite well. No real excesses. I don't hear anyone even suggest he has done anything wrong. But a long career rider who carries on well gets all the knowing comments - from the unknowing.

Overall, I think cycling is suffering for doing the right thing. We seem to be great at beating ourselves up about it as well. Others will follow, one day.

 

[Will1985]

Automatic life bans from all professional sport would be a good start, including future involvement as coach/manager which the UCI are already planning - the risk of a permanent loss of an athlete's livelihood must surely be a disincentive to doping. This would obviously require more cooperation between sports federations.

Unfortunately we'll always have those who blame their positives on dodgy meals, but to that I say ban all Spaniards from sport This leads me onto my next point - national federations should not be responsible for deciding the fate of dopers as each can be a law unto themselves; if the UCI took control, all riders would theoretically have exactly the same sanctions (compare the similar circumstances of Contador and Li).

Pharmaceutical companies could also do more to help the authorities develop tests even before a product is released, as Roche supposedly did with Micera. Perhaps the next step is to add specific tracers to the compounds which would show up as foreign metabolites. Nobody wants negative publicity surrounding a drug which has greater benefits to patients. It wouldn't be surprising however if PED production is beginning to go underground in which case the authorities will never win.

Note also that doping is growing in the domestic peloton where testing is far less common. Not necessarily in this country but there have been testimonies over the last few years that it is rife in the US and Italy....no doubt many other countries too.

 

[montage]

Whilst I can see the benefits of a permanent ban, I'm a huge supported of second chances - David Millar is a great example.

I'd say initial ban prolonged, large fine, and then possibly some sort of ban from CTT teams for a couple of years. If caught again then lifetime ban.

Where does doping currently stand about being criminal? A couple of years in jail could sort them out

 

[Flying_Monkey]

Whilst I can see the benefits of a permanent ban, I'm a huge supported of second chances - David Millar is a great example.

I'd say initial ban prolonged, large fine, and then possibly some sort of ban from CTT teams for a couple of years. If caught again then lifetime ban.

+1. Otherwise there's no room for learning from mistakes which is one of the most important things in life.