safest way to make right turn, busy dual carriageway

[Ian Cooper]

strong signal, plenty of shoulder checks? then possibly ambulance ride to casualty?

As long as you appear to other road users as if you're changing lanes, and as long as you've checked to make sure cars in the lane you're moving to have slowed somewhat (proving their occupants are not texting, shaving or writing a piano concerto while they drive), I see no hospital visits in your immediate future.

It's like when you first go on stage, or speak to an audience, or kneel down to do a pavement chalk drawing. You think it's going to take some superhuman exertion of will, and you imagine it will be scary and people will react violently or with derision. But if you just get on and do it, it suddenly seems perfectly normal - and you feel in control (because you are).

 

[tongskie01]

get a cycle mirror. it is of very good use on my recumbent.

 

[summerdays]

Each junction is different and you need to get to know YOUR junction and how it works at the time you go through it. Presumably as it is a roundabout, the lights change to red fairly frequently, and cars approaching the roundabout will be slowing down, both for the roundabout and the possible change of lights. The junction will work differently at times when there is lots of traffic so queueing in the lanes to when it is quiet and the speeds will be higher, and you may need to have a different approach for both situations.

Watch the lights as you approach and work out when is a good time to change lanes, for example as they are changing (though not if you think the car is near enough to the lights to try going for a late amber and accelerating), and using lots of looking and a clear signal. And do it in separate steps to change lane each time.

 

[Norm]

The most important thing, IMO, is to only do what you feel comfortable doing. Riding in a certain way just because someone on the 'net (or, worse still, in a book) said you should do that is not a good thing. No-one else knows the traffic you are facing or how assertive you are.

Being confident generally, again, IMO, makes you intentions more easily understood by other road users and that's always a good thing.

 

[Ian Cooper]

I have to disagree with Norm. If I only ever did what I felt comfortable doing, I would never have attempted any of my greatest accomplishments. Confidence, in my opinion, only ever comes after accomplishing something you don't feel comfortable doing.

 

[Hector]

I have to agree with Norm and disagree with Ian.

I'm all for coming out of one's 'comfort zone'. But when that involves different dynamics such as two lanes of traffic bearing down on you then i would defo go with the 'comfort factor'.

 

[Ian Cooper]

But when that involves different dynamics such as two lanes of traffic bearing down on you...

You make cycling in traffic seem like the charge of the 600 at Balaclava. Surely it's not that bad.

I think too many cyclists look at the road and see it filled with monsters out to get us. I see it filled with people wanting to get to work. It requires care, but surely it's not that scary. Traffic controls and the laws governing right of way impose rules and safeguards that prevent traffic from 'bearing down on you'. Even if we do everything wrong, the fact is, though they have some faults, motorists do not want to kill us, and they will do everything in their power to avoid harming us.

Anyone would think that cars were not equipped with brakes. I can assure you that if you just make sure that the space you're occupying is clear and whoever is 'bearing down on you' has seen you and has the ability to stop before he/she reaches you, you will always be fine on the road. Cycling - even in heavy fast-moving traffic - is just not that dangerous (unless you do something incredibly stupid like filtering on the kerbside of a lorry at a junction or riding in a door zone bike lane on a busy downtown street). The lifetime risk of dying on a bicycle is half that of dying while driving a car, and those fates happen to only 1 in 100 of us.

The perceived risk of cycling is waaaay overblown.

 

[summerdays]

I have to disagree with Norm. If I only ever did what I felt comfortable doing, I would never have attempted any of my greatest accomplishments. Confidence, in my opinion, only ever comes after accomplishing something you don't feel comfortable doing.

Whilst I can see that you do need to push yourself... I remember the first time I did a 3 lane roundabout (St James Barton, Bristol, one with underpasses that I had previously used), how I decided now was the time to go for it, after seeing a cyclist ahead of me and deciding to copy him. I did feel a sense of accomplishment and now regularly do that roundabout without problems, I also know cyclists that won't cycle it. However it had to be at a time I felt OK with trying to do it.

Without knowing the rider's experience and style, together with not having ridden that roundabout we can only give general advice. It is easy to feel that something that we can do without a thought, may be very daunting to someone else.

 

[Andy_R]

get a cycle mirror. it is of very good use on my recumbent.

Have to disagree with that. Looking behind is much more that just having a look for space, it's also about communicating with drivers. Eye contact is one of the key points in negotiating for space on the road, and you can't get that with a mirror. As for comfort zones, some peole are naturally more confident and willing to take risks, others aren't. If you take a confident rider who regularly goes out of their comfort zone, then it probably won't have any effect on their riding and decision making. If you take a less confident rider out of their comfort zone it could lead to bad decision making and bad riding, with potentially disastrous consequenses.

 

[Nigeyy]

Well here's my thoughts: Judge the traffic, the situation and do what you think is the safest.*

I really don't think there's any set way of doing anything on a road for every situation and context -you have to gauge the situation for yourself. I'm certainly not against pushing a bike to get by bad situations -better to be alive with use of all limbs than dead right. Personally, and if possible, I avoid what I consider high risk roads/junctions -it's just not worth it. However, I know that it's not always possible, and in this situation I just try to use my wits and navigate the safest way through.

*note, "safest" is not necessarily the fastest or most convenient (or at times, not even law abiding).

 

[Ian Cooper]

The whole point of Cyclecraft, Effective Cycling and the national schemes that take these manuals as their foundation, was to find the safest way (not the fastest, most convenient or most law-abiding way) to cycle. The whole reason we ride in the road is because it's the safest place to ride. That's why we who have learned to ride using these cycling safety schemes don't advocate pedestrian-style turns - because they're less safe.

In cycling, what looks safest often isn't. Walking a bike across lanes of traffic increases risk. We are far safer negotiating a turn using the standard rules and infrastructure of the road that have been developed over 120+ years, than we are when we make up our own rules whose prime motivation is to calm unfounded fears about the dangers of operating a bicycle in the street.

The road isn't anywhere near as dangerous as some cyclists make it out to be. If it were, I would have been knocked off my bike at least once in my 40 years and 20,000+ miles of road cycling.

"Position on the road is by far the most important influence that a cyclist has over his safety. Indeed, the loss of this ability to influence the actions of others is one reason why road-side cycle tracks and shared footways increase danger at junctions. Many cyclists fail to position themselves properly because of their fear of traffic, yet it is this very fear that puts them most at risk. Encouraging unsafe behaviour by directing cyclists to more hazardous positions does nobody any favours."

 

[Pat "5mph"]

thanks for reply hawk, i see 1 -200 mtrs
will give it a try in morning

strong signal, plenty of shoulder checks? then possibly ambulance ride to casualty?

I have the same kind of junction in my commute: plus it's downhill when I need to turn.
There are no lights to stop traffic, so, what I do - don't care what anybody else says unless it's 6 o'clock on a Sunday morning, I dismount and cross on foot!

 

[Pat "5mph"]

I have to disagree with Norm. If I only ever did what I felt comfortable doing, I would never have attempted any of my greatest accomplishments. Confidence, in my opinion, only ever comes after accomplishing something you don't feel comfortable doing.

We really must get a "dislike" button!
IMO, one accomplishes great things when one works hard on improving ones skills, not on ignoring ones justified fears.
Why make life hard when there is a stress free solution?

 

[psmiffy]

I dont think you should make any hard and fast rules how you tackle this - im confident on the road and quite traffic tolerant - , however, i will make my decision wrt to what i am going to do by observing what is going on behind me - if i dont like it then I will pull to the left and stop and then cross when i think it is safe - I'd much rather be a live pragmatist than a dead idealist.

 

[Boris Bajic]

I have to disagree with Norm. If I only ever did what I felt comfortable doing, I would never have attempted any of my greatest accomplishments. Confidence, in my opinion, only ever comes after accomplishing something you don't feel comfortable doing.

I do not understand the above. Norm is (as far as I'm aware) only talking about doing what one is comfortable with in traffic.

He does not say one should never leave one's comfort zone. His post seems eminently sensible.

I'm slightly uncomfortable that a contributor to these forums who describes himself as a Cycling Advocate (whatever that is) is advising the OP to ride outside his comfort zone in potentially hazardous traffic. This is not tantamount to suggesting UK traffic is like the Russian Guns at Balaclava.

It's lovely to hear that Ian Cooper has a list of 'greatest accomplishments'. I dare say modesty does not number among them.

But to advise a cyclist to ride outside their comfort zone when they've asked a perfectly reasonable question about crossing two lanes of traffic is disturbing.