Ribble Ale - Failed Freehub, what's a reasonable response?

[Dogtrousers]

Agree with much of that in principle, however from the design of the hub (specifically its integration with the motor housing) the shortcomings of the design appear to rest with Mahle rather than Ribble..

Point taken but Ribble chose their suppliers and they are the ones selling to the public.

 

[wafter]

Point taken but Ribble chose their suppliers and they are the ones selling to the public.

True; sadly it seems that retailers who have both a decent understanding of what they're selling and the integrity to offer decent products to their customers can be counted on the fingers of no hands..

Retail now seems to be dominated by the mindset of making a quick buck on rubbish products; the customer being a cash-cow to be mercilessly exploited until dead.

 

[lazybloke]

I don't think I've ever had a problem with a freehub.

I once dismantled a 5 speed freewheel because I wanted to see how the pawls worked. My curiosity evaporated as what seemed like a million tiny ball bearings scattered across the floor. I've never replaced a freehub, even though it has to survive many times longer than a freewheel.

Agree with much of that in principle, however from the design of the hub (specifically its integration with the motor housing) the shortcomings of the design appear to rest with Mahle rather than Ribble..

But Ribble specc'd the components. They had a choice of better components if the design is found to be unreliable.
They also have a choice of what level of customer service they provide.


I had an argument with Argos when a mobile phone went faulty outside the first month (DOA period) but well within warranty.
They said they had no process for handling such devices and I was welcome to take up the matter with the manufacturer.
But I found an online definition of DOA that said that faults from 1-6 months are assumed to be the same as DOA, unless the retailer proves otherwise. Armed with print-outs, I got a full refund just a couple of days before that 6 month time limit.

If the wheel in question hadn't been pringled, I'd be discussing the warranty with Ribble, using any information from Mahle I could find. I'd also ask my card issuer if a warranty claim rejection was a breach of contract; there might be a chargeback option.

 

[Alex321]

I once dismantled a 5 speed freewheel because I wanted to see how the pawls worked. My curiosity evaporated as what seemed like a million tiny ball bearings scattered across the floor. I've never replaced a freehub, even though it has to survive many times longer than a freewheel.



But Ribble specc'd the components. They had a choice of better components if the design is found to be unreliable.
They also have a choice of what level of customer service they provide.


I had an argument with Argos when a mobile phone went faulty outside the first month (DOA period) but well within warranty.
They said they had no process for handling such devices and I was welcome to take up the matter with the manufacturer.
But I found an online definition of DOA that said that faults from 1-6 months are assumed to be the same as DOA, unless the retailer proves otherwise. Armed with print-outs, I got a full refund just a couple of days before that 6 month time limit.

If the wheel in question hadn't been pringled, I'd be discussing the warranty with Ribble, using any information from Mahle I could find. I'd also ask my card issuer if a warranty claim rejection was a breach of contract; there might be a chargeback option.

The issue here is that it was well beyond that 6 month period, and had done 5,000 miles.

At that point, it is up to the consumer to show the item was inherently faulty, and that will not be easy.

 

[wafter]

But Ribble specc'd the components. They had a choice of better components if the design is found to be unreliable.
They also have a choice of what level of customer service they provide.

This is true; and again comes down to a question of their levels of understanding, integrity and trust in the supplier. Playing devil's advocate it's probably unlikely that such detailed information on product sub-assembly lifespan etc is made available to designers / resellers, while the item might be relatively new to market when specced at the design stage; so an unknown quantity.

Whatever the intricacies this only serves to reinforce my resolution to stick with simple, established, standardised components that I can realistically source and fit myself.

 

[lazybloke]

The issue here is that it was well beyond that 6 month period, and had done 5,000 miles.

It's not about the original wheel (which has been pringled); I've moved on to theoretical scenarios that others might face, where a DOA claim might be possible.

At that point, it is up to the consumer to show the item was inherently faulty, and that will not be easy.

When DOA isn't an option, I suggested two other approaches:
1) looking at the component documentation for any indications of reliabilty expectations; these could be useful in arguing a valid warranty claim with a retailer.

Failing that,
2) if bought with credit, speak to the card issuer because warranties have protections under the Consumer Credit Act (usually section 75), and can potentally be addressed with a chargeback.

 

[gbb]

It's a moot point but if it were mine, I'd make my own spanners (at least have a try) but then I had access to materials, drills, welders etc etc. You'd be surprised what you can do sometimes...
I can see why the freehub is £80 to be fair, there's a lot of machining in that.

Putting some perspective on it, I'd say your potential loss of £80 for 5,000 miles use is pretty good value at 1.6p / mile cycled.

Even if you add in the cost of the tools, it still only comes out at circa 3p per mile

It's disappointing, but I'd swallow it and move on.

 

[IanSmithCSE]

Good morning,

......... @IanSmithCSE you are having a streak of bad luck.......

I sure am, I bought a Clarks chain for the Raleigh in January and it broke in January, I used a quick link to get home and planned to replace it, but the Ribble arrived and I forgot.

Back on the Raleigh and on Friday (8 days ago) the chain broke again, both times on a normal link not a quick link, so I was off at a very slow speed, it was then that I remembered that I needed to replace the chain.

I don't blame Ribble for the choice of components, I knew what I was buying and despite many votes for 5,000 miles being okay, I am still bugged by their indifference. Don't forget that they are still selling X35 equipped bikes today.

A couple of years ago I bought a pair of Tiagra/Mavic inhouse built wheels from SJS Cycles and the Shimano freehub failed after only a couple of thousand miles. I spoke to SJS, said I was happy to replace the freehub myself and they said, please try soaking it oil to see if that helps if not we will send you a new freehub. Oil didn't help, they sent me a new freehub, they didn't lose much and I still put a small steady stream of business their way and am very positive about them.

I won't be going down the small claims route as the amount is in my mind too small, but if I were I wouldn't argue that the product was defective, as it probably wasn't. Instead the argument would be unfit for purpose, by stating that the product is a consumable and has been consumed Ribble have established that 5,000 miles is in their minds a reasonable lifespan. I suspect that they would have a very hard time with the consumable argument given the cost of the tool required to replace it.

As to the freehub is a consumable disclaimer,
Consumable items such as gear cables, freehub bodies, inner tubes, brake pads, wheel truing and bearings are non-warrantable items and not covered by this policy.
this is not ebike specific, but wouldn't be much of an issue on a non ebike given the low cost and ease of replacing the part, unless it was Dura-Ace.

.... It's a moot point but if it were mine, I'd make my own spanners (at least have a try) but then I had access to materials, drills, welders etc etc. .......

It's disappointing, but I'd swallow it and move on.

I have become a modern middle class person without a workshop and the tools necessary to make them.

I don't really have any choice do I?

But this will make it an expensive month,
£140 hub and tools
£118 - 3 new Inner tubes (oh, I did also get a Lezene light, some tyres and something else)
£58 - 6 spokes (4 more inner tubes and a new set of pedals)

Most months seem to be like this, something that is only 1p or 2p mile needs replacing.

I've been gobbling though inner tubes as it has been raining a lot and I have been riding through puddles sufficiently deep that my foot is in the puddle at the bottom of the stroke. This seem to result in water with very small bits of hard mud, gravel etc finding its way inside the tyre and causing a small puncture. I do patch them but patches, like me, don't seem to like being soaked in water.

Bye

Ian

 

[gbb]

From the opening post and ref the consumable part exclusion.
"you don't seem able to replace the just freehub as it comes with the motor outer plate"
By making the unit so the freehub is intergral with part of the motor you could not unreasonably argue that it has ceased to be a consumable part if it is impractical to replace it and furthermore it is an intergral part of the motor assembly and there has to be covered by the warranty.

Again sadly, I'd disagree.
It requires tools to replace, so does just about everything. We don't complain because we need special BB tools ?

It is a consumable part... it wears out and requires replacement. Expensive but consumable.

It's not impractical to replace, (it actually looks quite easy to replace...Once you have the tools. But yes its expensive to replace.

You could argue the same about any premium car, the costs of specialist tools and complexity go up. Its a sad reality, we don't get to know the shortcomings of a particular design until its usually too late.

Don't get me wrong, I sympathise with the OPs situation, we just see things through different eyes.

On another note, I saw the item was only for sale to those that had brought a bike from them...fair enough, protects their customers. But what happens when that bike gets sold on, some poor sap may find great difficulty obtaining the part

 

[presta]

Is it a brown Ale or a pale Ale?

 

[IanSmithCSE]

Good morning,

On another note, I saw the item was only for sale to those that had brought a bike from them...fair enough, protects their customers. But what happens when that bike gets sold on, some poor sap may find great difficulty obtaining the part

Just to be completely clear, I posted that our customers only link as an indication that fixing the issue was more complex than going to Halfords and buying the needed bits.

I had a very friendly exhange with a (the?) local ebike dealer whose web site says

Servicing of Electric Bikes Purchased Elsewhere​

OnBike is dedicated to providing the ultimate service to its customers, in every respect. With this in mind, we are committed to prioritising our own customers and are therefore unable to service ebikes purchased from other retailers.

The owner was polite, friendly, sympathetic and clear that this really is their policy.

Ribble won't even stock and sell the part to their customers, even though they are still selling new bikes which by their definition will require that part!

Is it a brown Ale or a pale Ale?

It is neither, it is a Private Equity Pale Ale, PEPA, a bland characterless Keg Beer keep below the horizon, and the first one that springs to mind is Doombar, once upon a time there was Courage Directors, but I would accept that as a reasonable nomination as well.

Bye

Ian

 

[kingrollo]

Correct me if I am wrong but you were never 100% happy with the performance of this bike from day 1. I seem to recall you saying it was only nominally easier to get up hills than a non e bike ?

Write a letter to the CEO of Ribble - send it recorded delivery - threaten the small claims court.

Also get into ribbles social media pages - don't slander them frame it as a question....

"How does everyone else find Ribble after sales/warranty" etc...

 

[Espresso vecchio]

Whatever opinions the retailer likes to hold about whether or not this freehub is consumable, a consumable item is usually considered as something that will
A: wear out in normal use over a period, and
B: in the case of a bicycle rather than a spaceship, be replaced easily without special tools by the end-user

The position here is that a crucial component:

1: has broken, as distinct from worn out
2: failed well within 12 months
3: cannot reasonably or easily be replaced by the user
4: seems unobtainable through authorized suppliers (against European rules on availability of parts).

If it were me I would not be toying with turgid admindroids in the courts or trading standards. I would be writing a polite, succinct and non-threatening email to the CEO of whichever of Mahle's many UK arms deals with ebikes as opposed to automobile or other engineering systems. This is a reputable multi-billion pound/euro company. Find out which subsidiary deals with ebikes, eg Mahle Industries. Mahle Powertrain, Mahle Aftermarket etc.

My experience of writing emails to CEOs of various companies on four separate problems in the last few years has been excellent. A response comes within 24h, not of course from the CEO, but someone sensible and intelligent who can see the picture clearly and - vitally - has the authority to tell someone to fix the matter quickly. It's a magical experience.

You can get the name of the CEO and the direct email from a very useful website https://www.ceoemail.com/. (Sorry. I can't get the hyperlink here to work).

Good luck..and let us know

PS, edited a bit later. I've just looked at the Mahle Aftermarket website out of interest. In their Customer Portal consumables are listed as such things as fuses, nuts, screws, washers and so on. Important specific components are things like electric motors.... Phone Mahle first to check which part of Mahle deals with ebike motors, then you will know exactly where to send the email. Even if the ebike motor subsidiary is based in Stuttgart rather than UK you will still get a good response...maybe better!

PPS Mahle SmartBike Systems have a UK support team who may be a good place to start with a phone call. https://mahle-smartbike.com/contact/
If they are not helpful that's even more useful stuff to include with your CEO email.

PPPS! Paragraph 6 of Mahle's Warranty says:

"6. Warranty policy
We strive to deliver excellent quality in our products every day, which enables us to provide the following warranty and coverage
terms.
Duration of the warranty
As MAHLE Smartbike Systems we guarantee that the drive system and all the electrical components of the purchased bicycle
are free of defective materials and will function without any limitations for a duration of two years or 500 cycling charges,
whichever comes first."

Time to act, and plenty of time too....

 

[kingrollo]

Whatever opinions the retailer likes to hold about whether or not this freehub is consumable, a consumable item is usually considered as something that will
A: wear out in normal use over a period, and
B: in the case of a bicycle rather than a spaceship, be replaced easily without special tools by the end-user

The position here is that a crucial component:

1: has broken, as distinct from worn out
2: failed well within 12 months
3: cannot reasonably or easily be replaced by the user
4: seems unobtainable through authorized suppliers (against European rules on availability of parts).

If it were me I would not be toying with turgid admindroids in the courts or trading standards. I would be writing a polite, succinct and non-threatening email to the CEO of whichever of Mahle's many UK arms deals with ebikes as opposed to automobile or other engineering systems. This is a reputable multi-billion pound/euro company. Find out which subsidiary deals with ebikes, eg Mahle Industries. Mahle Powertrain, Mahle Aftermarket etc.

My experience of writing emails to CEOs of various companies on four separate problems in the last few years has been excellent. A response comes within 24h, not of course from the CEO, but someone sensible and intelligent who can see the picture clearly and - vitally - has the authority to tell someone to fix the matter quickly. It's a magical experience.

You can get the name of the CEO and the direct email from a very useful website https://www.ceoemail.com/. (Sorry. I can't get the hyperlink here to work).

Good luck..and let us know

PS, edited a bit later. I've just looked at the Mahle Aftermarket website out of interest. In their Customer Portal consumables are listed as such things as fuses, nuts, screws, washers and so on. Important specific components are things like electric motors.... Phone Mahle first to check which part of Mahle deals with ebike motors, then you will know exactly where to send the email. Even if the ebike motor subsidiary is based in Stuttgart rather than UK you will still get a good response...maybe better!

PPS Mahle SmartBike Systems have a UK support team who may be a good place to start with a phone call. https://mahle-smartbike.com/contact/
If they are not helpful that's even more useful stuff to include with your CEO email.

I've done this loads of times over the years. It works like a charm . Just this week I've got £400 from my insurance company who damaged my car whilst repairing it - if I hadn't have gone to the CEO - id have had endless inspections, denials of responsibility etc.

I used to spend hours crafting a carefully worded letter - but find actually that a quick email stating clearly what is acceptable as a resolution does the trick most of the time.

 

[IanSmithCSE]

Good morning,

Correct me if I am wrong but you were never 100% happy with the performance of this bike from day 1. I seem to recall you saying it was only nominally easier to get up hills than a non e bike ? ...

You are right it is a disappointment to me, but having bought it it acquired a rack and became the commute bike,

But even if I were in love with it I would still have been annoyed at Ribble's attitude.

Whatever opinions the retailer likes to hold about whether or not this freehub is consumable, a consumable item is usually considered as something that will
A: wear out in normal use over a period, and
B: in the case of a bicycle rather than a spaceship, be replaced easily without special tools by the end-user.....

Thanks for thoughts and effort, fortunately It's not quite this bad, there are some shops willing to sell the parts to people who didn't buy the bike from them. I ordered them from https://www.swinnertoncycles.co.uk/ and they arrived yesterday.

I can see why shops wouldn't want to tie up money in holding many in stock but still want to be able to support those who bought a bike from them. So it probably isn't that Mahle aren't making enough available to retailers but that retailers don't want to buy them on the off chance that they can sell them.

As nobody I would normally use stocks them it was case of picking a shop at random of the internet, fortunately it went well.

I do plan to make Ribble spend too much time answering me, :-) and I am happy to pick up the £70 for the tools but will be bugging them for the £70 part but I wanted to wait for an invoice to include. The part is actually good value, freehub, wheel bearing and heavily machined mounting plate, it is so obvious that ebikemotion/Mahle don't consider the freehub to be a 5,000 mile disposable part.

[Edit]
I have just started to get adverts for Swinnerton Cycles on YouTube, now that I am customer that are advertising to me .

[Edit]
For those unfamiliar with the X35, here is the "freehub" as sold and the spanners and please don't ask me why they don't sell just the freehub.









Bye

Ian