Podium Girls

[Radchenister]

Or, if we arrange things better, she might grow up developing some hitherto unrecognised form of healthy omnisexuality that is not formed entirely within the constraints of a heterosexist dominant culture. Just a thought.

Now you're talking !

She clearly has her head screwed on. But it's not about whether you find it offensive- it's about the corrosive effects of inequality. What if she wants to be professional a racing cyclist? What if she grows up and the men she meets treat her as a thing and not as a person? What if she is regarded by others as an accessory to the achievements of men?

To be honest, I totally agree with the logic but have already said podium people should go if they offend the majority, whether it really erodes your position or not is down to the individual's perspective IMO; I am prepared to accept it might do this of course but equally others may feel it doesn't ... I don't feel insisting on your view being the absolute position covers the 50 shades of grey in this world and really works in any debate. I still remain sceptical and surprised that podium girls (& boys?) are considered so detrimental - whenever talking to friends who are feeling put upon, I often refer to not acknowledging the power of the perpetrator but admittedly, this is usually as a defensive measure.

If anyone in our family wanted to become a professional cyclist I would look into being able to trust that the infrastructure around them was supportive, is this not improving, I would hope so?... and they would of course have their Mum and Dad behind them.

Put me in charge of organising an event, then I would view it from a different perspective of course - I would likely have a group of young (edit: or old for that matter) males and females do the prize giving role in parallel, perhaps picked from local schools or cycling clubs etc. The young athletes who lit the Olympic flame are a good example for instance: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-19008471

The rest of your questions re oppression and accessorising the position of another might apply if either of them (my children) were to meet a male or female partner equally - we are a liberal family you see - you had accepted the divides in the first response and then disabled them in the second above, which is essentially what I was digging for when discussing the position with Spinney.

 

[Rob3rt]

Oldroadman - these were your words @ http://www.cyclechat.net/threads/yates-and-de-jongh-also-booted-from-sky.116462/#post-2124533

"How quick are the majority of posters to condemn, when we are talking about history which happened before some were even out of school, in what was a very different world. People had mouths to feed, no excuse I know, but often the team domestique rider (average pro career maybe 4 years) needed to make what he/she could to try and secure a better future than a job in a factory."

So I think many would offer a translation to that as: " it is ok to cheat and rob others (this dumb idea that doping is a victimless crime is moronic) to avoid working in a factory. No excuse I know but can't you just understand it. I would do it if I was in their shoes ! "

Sadly, just as it appears you wanted to excuse Yates, presumably because you spent so many years admiring him, rather than recognising what was so obvious, for so long, to so many, as his past links makes it nearly incredible to believe he did anything other than rob and cheat others of their livelihoods, like the rest of his buddies on US Postal and elsewhere, you want to excuse the attitudes you have harboured for many years, during your engagement in cycling towards females, in their use as decoration to men in a man's sport.

I know of a young girl who helped me out with some youngsters for a few months in some very worthy work. She worked, during her undergraduate days, as a lap-dancer. I was very saddened to learn of this. She had access to funding, far greater than I had when I was an undergraduate and did not need to demean herself to that extent. She took a view that , why work for many hours stacking shelves or some such other minimum wage activity, when she could earn more in a few hours at a night club. There was some bizarre logic she offered (something of the style oldroadman would not doubt approve) about how doing this gave her more time to study and so she could get a better degree. Just think about the next step in that chain, shelf stacker, podium girl, lap dancer, ......... . She got a degree. Maybe she will marry one of her punters ? Perhaps he will write in 30 years time about the form of his partners mammary glands and how their preserved shape and their exposure at critical moments, has enabled her to advance through ( a male dominated ) life, to her advantage.

All of this is just a sad reflection on those who have managed our sport for the last 20 or 30 years. Someone will no doubt be able to recall the idiot UK promoter in the 1970's who hired a bunch of girls to ride topless on bikes. We desperately needed to move from that position to one matching say, triathlon. Certainly those at the top in the last 10 or so years have done very little.

Is it possible to keep threads separate, i.e. if you have something to say about his opinion on that matter, respond to it in that thread.

That is you you projecting your views on her.

 

[SlipperySquid]

Radical feminism at it's finest here.

Yup, you are right..podium girls are ruining cycling for women everywhere....just like the podium women at football matches are ruining womens football....or any other sport for that matter "Down with Podiums!"...Though I think beach volley ball has a good following.

 

[Rob3rt]

Slippery Squid.......... you are a doofus!

 

[Haitch]

Radical feminism at it's finest here.

Yup, you are right..podium girls are ruining cycling for women everywhere....just like the podium women at football matches are ruining womens football....or any other sport for that matter "Down with Podiums!"...Though I think beach volley ball has a good following.

Do I get a TMN for saying all this in post 223 above?

 

[MacB]

is Slippery Squid a returnee of some description?

 

[Rob3rt]

He has the same qualities as backwash so he might be!

 

[Crackle]

is Slippery Squid a returnee of some description?

It was a thought.

 

[resal]

That is you you projecting your views on her.

It certainly is. However, with significant first hand experience of her, I know that in doing so I am only replicating the dilemma she faced.

Male dominated World. Funds required to complete studies. Don't want to go through the "pain" of living like a "hermit". [Not real pain, not really the life of a hermit.] Reward-effort ratio for readily obtained casual employment compromises study/leisure time. Reward-effort ratio at "alternate" activity is a compromise worth the goal. Wider issues can go to blazes, I need to be pragmatic to myself at this moment in time.

Haven't we seen over the last 30 years in this sport, how there are many individuals who are incapable of making the right decision, when faced with the facts of their circumstances ? Personal pragmatism trumps wider issues. Betsy Andreau projected her views on her husband. He took PEDs, she gave him resolve. He gave them up.That is why the wider issues need addressing.

"No podium girls" is such a tiny step, it does not even warrant the question. That anybody can waste time defending it, whether that defence is direct - ie the idiot posting a picture and saying .."here are TWO good reasons why they should be kept" to the, "hookers have made their own decision to earn their living lying on their backs, they are grown up and by doing so they are not forcing any other women to join them in the sex trade (and yes, I know nobody has posted that but there is only margin between what was posted and what I have posted) - is mind-boggling.

 

[Crankarm]

Or, if we arrange things better, she might grow up developing some hitherto unrecognised form of healthy omnisexuality that is not formed entirely within the constraints of a heterosexist dominant culture. Just a thought.

Eeeek! What a thought just ...............

 

[Crankarm]

Are podium boys the solution?

Would even things out and shut the whingers/kiljoys up.

 

[SlipperySquid]

is Slippery Squid a returnee of some description?

In your post you equated myself saying "If you've got it flaunt it" to a news story on teenage suicide and rape?Overreact much?

To the rest of your good selves, no..I am not a returnee . I am actually a new forum member that has seen the likes of these threads before in many incarnations populated with the kind of folks that like to knit yoghurt and believe all are equal.
Well we are not equal, never will be either, it's genetics.

To think that podium girls are ruining cycling for females etc is ridiculous to say the least.The only people that see it as a problem are the ones that are looking to make it a problem...to whit....you lot.

Slippery Squid.......... you are a doofus!

Who uses the word "Doofus"?

 

[MacB]

I don't know, Doofus does seem to fit, anyway I'm not going to waste any more time on another 'common sense/stands to reason/it's only a laugh' clone.

 

[theclaud]

Now you're talking !


To be honest, I totally agree with the logic but have already said podium people should go if they offend the majority, whether it really erodes your position or not is down to the individual's perspective IMO; I am prepared to accept it might do this of course but equally others may feel it doesn't ... I don't feel insisting on your view being the absolute position covers the 50 shades of grey in this world and really works in any debate. I still remain sceptical and surprised that podium girls (& boys?) are considered so detrimental - whenever talking to friends who are feeling put upon, I often refer to not acknowledging the power of the perpetrator but admittedly, this is usually as a defensive measure.

If anyone in our family wanted to become a professional cyclist I would look into being able to trust that the infrastructure around them was supportive, is this not improving, I would hope so?... and they would of course have their Mum and Dad behind them.

Put me in charge of organising an event, then I would view it from a different perspective of course - I would likely have a group of young (edit: or old for that matter) males and females do the prize giving role in parallel, perhaps picked from local schools or cycling clubs etc. The young athletes who lit the Olympic flame are a good example for instance: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-19008471

The rest of your questions re oppression and accessorising the position of another might apply if either of them (my children) were to meet a male or female partner equally - we are a liberal family you see - you had accepted the divides in the first response and then disabled them in the second above, which is essentially what I was digging for when discussing the position with Spinney.

The problem is that we don't live (or ride, or watch racing) in a world consisting of an undifferentiated soup of opinions, but in a world with real power relations which are both reflected and reinforced by representations, and in which ideas conflict and some prevail, and it matters which ones. Podium "girls" don't cause women's cycling to be disadvantaged in comparison to men's, and they don't cause men to subject women to unwanted sexual attention, but the Podium Girls convention arises from the same attitudes towards and beliefs about women that do cause these things. It's not about my view - it's a question of what podium girls mean, and whether it is possible to have a serious commitment to equality whilst simultaneously perpetuating such meanings. A male cyclist cannot pose with a podium "girl" without endorsing (inadvertently or otherwise) the idea that she is an ornament and accessory to his success, without appropriating her body as an object to be looked at and judged in the context of his power, without suggesting that she is part of the prize. It isn't optional or properly consensual on either side - it is expected that men who win races will participate in this ritual. So we are not talking about views, we are talking about the right for successful males to be symbolically awarded women as prizes, versus the right of women not to be demeaned and objectified for the benefit of men. There's simply no justification for it in any context which claims to value equality. You know this, which is why you would organise prize-giving differently. The Olympic ceremony, as you say, recognised this, so why should we not demand the same of professional cycling?

I'm not sure I understand your last point. Sexism describes the phenomenon that society is ordered in ways that systematically disadvantage women and confer advantage upon men. By definition it doesn't have a reverse or equivalent. I may be getting the wrong end of the stick...

 

[theclaud]

the kind of folks that like to knit yoghurt and believe all are equal.

We already have a pet muppet who has practically copyrighted that phrase. He is tolerated and pitied, and regarded with a sort of grudging, exasperated affection, but I'm not sure there's enough of it to stretch any further...