LeMond: Armstrong was top 30 rider at best.

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Scoop940

Senior Member
Or if you can't be bothered reading watch this.

If you can be bothered reading The Secret Race is a damn good read.


Video sums it up very well, hadn't seen that before.

Secret Race very good, as is Racing Through the Dark by David Millar, I'm not usually a reader but couldn't put these down. Interesting how both books actually tell a very similar Story - David Millar's a bit less "Hollywood"

Lance took it futher than the others, they all lied and cheated yes but the way Lance went after people and pretty much destroyed peoples lives sets him apart IMO.
 
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rich p

ridiculous old lush
Location
Brighton
I'm all tuckered out answering LA fanboys and apologists but some of you new boys may find these threads illuminating...
http://www.cyclechat.net/threads/armstrong-charged-and-banned.104078/
http://www.cyclechat.net/threads/the-new-improved-lance-armstrong-discussion-thread.110635/
They'll get you up to speed in no time.
 

Flying_Monkey

Recyclist
Location
Odawa
We'll never really know if they were. I am adopting the position that they would not have been had it not been for doping. Which, from everything I have read, seems to be the most logical position to adopt.

Well, he was a potentially world-beating triathlete before he turned to cycling. And I very much doubt he was doping in his teens. Unfortunately, his sociopathic bastardy combined with a single-minded and aggressive determination is also the mark of more than a few conventionally successful (sports)people (Hinault, anyone?). I have no time for him as a person and I've been pretty clear on where I stand on doping, but I just think it's silly to deny that Armstrong was a really rather good racing cyclist. Landis was too, and Hamilton, and Pantani...
 

thom

____
Location
The Borough
Wouldn't say he was better at cheating as he got caught, but maybe his body reacted to the drugs better. I'm under the opinion that he was, on the day, better than the other riders. His amateur and neo-pro results were very good and it must have been a fairly level playing field at that time in the pro scene.
Unfortunately for you, that opinion will only ever be an opinion and one that Lance denied you the possibility of ever knowing the truth about.
I suspect it will be a minority held view but you are entitled to it.
 

thom

____
Location
The Borough
I'm not going to say doping is correct, however I don't understand why it is only Lance who seems to have had titles taken away from him since retirement.
1) Lance secured 7 titles - there were not so many else lying around of the TdF variety. He was the biggest guy out there and being won by a US athlete in such great proportions, USADA/FBI investigations were deemed appropriate to establish facts. If you are only going to get one guy, he was the guy to get.
2) Lance was offered the chance to keep a good few of them had he cooperated with investigations. He gambled on his modus operandi of bullying preventing the full truth come out and lost.

I'm sure the same would apply to any other similarly dominant athletes who had such a sophisticated program but none others really existed with similar success.
 
It is terrible what happened to Lance's adversaries in the grimy tale of his Faustian pact.... Nobody can excuse what he did to others and I imagine nobody will try.

But we are a society who can read Mario Puzo and identify with Vito or Michael. We know the deal they've made with fate and we are somehow quite attracted to its absolute and brutal inflexibility. As long as it is kept to the pages of a novel or a TV screen, there is something noble and animal about the absolute imposition of a code of Omerta or Gjakmarrje.

Then we see that it has crept off the screen and is being practised by Mr Armstrong. "If we are going to cheat, you are in or you are out. There can be no passengers. The rewards are great, but the risks are too. No room for passengers".

I paraphrase terribly, but the parallel with the Corleone family is not completely invalid. For Armstrong's conceit to flourish, obedience, respect and silence had to be absolute. I think him the damaged and slimy product of a twisted relationship with a devoted mother who poured into her son the energy and love she kept failing to receive from the men in her life. There is so much damage in his childhood - and he did the thing men so often do... he turned it on those who stood against him as an adult. Again I simplify a very complex series of issues.

I still hold him in high regard for the racing that he and the clean guys around him produced in those glory years of smashed records and sprinted climbs and just magnificent maulings of guys who were ever-so-nearly just as fast. I was never a fanboy (although I was close to that with Pantani, who never doped).

But I do see a Cosa Nostra granite in the absolute nature of the loyalty (fear) that Lance demanded in his pomp. It should have been a film.

"We have to go now, Tessio. I can't come with you. You go in that car".

"OK Tom. Tell Lance it was only business. I always liked Lance, it was just business."
 
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VamP

Banned
Location
Cambs
“I think it is just terrible and disgusting how everyone has treated Lance Armstrong, especially after what he achieved winning seven Tour de France races while competing on drugs.
“When I was on drugs, I couldn’t even find my bike.”

Tricky
 

Flying_Monkey

Recyclist
Location
Odawa
Indeed, top 30 or thereabouts level. ;)

I don't see any reason why he wouldn't have been a contender for most of the time. I think LeMond's claim is motivated more by personal animosity - it's easy to kick someone when they are down, especially someone who has tried to ruin your life. I'm not saying Armstrong doesn't deserve everything that's coming to him in a moral sense, but I do dispute the 'facts' of claims like this.
 

Crankarm

Guru
Location
Nr Cambridge
And how do we know Lemond was riding clean ................? Maybe he's having his revenge on Armstrong now knowing his own (Lemond) performance is unlikely to be challenged as there is no evidence owing to time elapsed. Just face it the whole of Pro cycling going back decades right from the first tour has been one big dope / stimulant fest - death of Tommy Simpson on Ventoux then Pantani. They have all been at it at some point to try to gain an advantage over rivals and get a win certain in their minds that the risk to their health and that they wouldn't be caught was worth it. Riders, team managers and organisers complicit in extensive doping - Festina, Dr Ferrari, the list is long of riders who have doped. They are all there. Only now we have this ultra Puritanical zero tolerance to stimulants that it is possible with advances in technology to much more closely monitor riders and out the "cheats". Cycling may now be the cleanest it has ever been but there will still be people prepared to cheat to win. If it would be possible to turn back the clock and re-run races with all riders clean then we would truly see who was the best but of course we can't do this. Armstrong in top 30 riders? I don't know.
 
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Location
Hampshire
My understanding is that with all his natural abilities LA could have won classics and GT stages (think Philippe Gilbert) but would never have been a GC contender without doping.
 

VamP

Banned
Location
Cambs
And how do we know Lemond was riding clean ................? Maybe he's having his revenge on Armstrong now knowing his own (Lemond) performance is unlikely to be challenged as there is no evidence owing to time elapsed. Just face it the whole of Pro cycling going back decades right from the first tour has been one big dope / stimulant fest - death of Tommy Simpson on Ventoux then Pantani. They have all been at it at some point to try to gain an advantage over rivals and get a win certain in their minds that the risk to their health and that they wouldn't be caught was worth it. Riders, team managers and organisers complicit in extensive doping - Festina, Dr Ferrari, the list is long of riders who have doped. They are all there. Only now we have this ultra Puritanical zero tolerance to stimulants that it is possible with advances in technology to much more closely monitor riders and out the "cheats". Cycling may now be the cleanest it has ever been but there will still be people prepared to cheat to win. If it would be possible to turn back the clock and re-run races with all riders clean then we would truly see who was the best but of course we can't do this. Armstrong in top 30 riders? I don't know.


Hey, this has to be a contender for the most out of touch post of the year, surely?
 
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