Inexperienced e-Bike Riders [Local Problem?]

[mjr]

Two incidences with two illegal e-bike riders [...]
Both bikes were retrofits with large hub motors attached.

So homebrew electric motorbikes, not e-bikes at all.

I know this is anecdotal, but it's no surprise people are getting riled by them.

And it's no surprised people are blaming cyclists for their actions when even cyclists will call them e-bikes instead of pointing out they're bodged motorbikes.

 

[PedallingNowhereSlowly]

Members of the public will perceive them as bicycles and the riders as cyclists no matter what we say.
They are bicycles with illegal modifications encompassing an electric motor.

In the appropriate forum, it is probably wise to point out they are mopeds without type approval, registration, VRMs, VED and insurance. I can't say I've conversed with anyone outside of this forum about it as yet.

We and most the audience here know these retrofitted bicycles don't meet the requirements to be classified as EAPCs.

 

[classic33]

So homebrew electric motorbikes, not e-bikes at all.


And it's no surprised people are blaming cyclists for their actions when even cyclists will call them e-bikes instead of pointing out they're bodged motorbikes.

Maybe because many see them as e-bikes that fall outside the current epac regulations, when they really fall into one of the two current light moped classes.

 

[PedallingNowhereSlowly]

And pointing that out to the general populous will be disregarded as hand-waving.
Is an effective police force (to both deter and enforce) and court system the true answer?

 

[matticus]

EDITED:

SOME Members of the public will perceive them as bicycles and the riders as cyclists no matter what we say.

And we are all members of the public.

The more you bandy around incorrect facts, the more they will propagate. It doesn't matter where you do this.

 

[PedallingNowhereSlowly]

So these are not retrofitted bicycles then?
It is possible for two different facts to be true. At the risk of stating the obvious again, they are both electrically powered bicycles, hence e-bike and unapproved/unregisted/unlicensed and uninsured mopeds. The fact they are bicycles is why it is such a problem for us.

Now can we please move on from splitting hairs?

There are cautious drivers who follow the rules, and then there are those who don't care about laws. I honestly don't know how to deal with it. The problem is that everyone on e-scooters, bikes, or motorbikes suffers because of these reckless drivers, leading to more restrictions. In my city, owners of e.scooters can only go up to 16 mph now. Maybe that's enough, but the fact that there are these limits bothers me. Plus, it doesn't prevent violations or accidents.

The danger is that not only could it lead to more restrictions, it could also lead to more requirements and no fuel needs throwing on the 'cyclists should display registration numbers' fire, at least in the UK.

 

[matticus]

So these are not retrofitted bicycles then?
It is possible for two different facts to be true. At the risk of stating the obvious again, they are both electrically powered bicycles, hence e-bike and unapproved/unregisted/unlicensed and uninsured mopeds. The fact they are bicycles is why it is such a problem for us.

Words matter.

Hence, yes, two different phrases may be true, but surely you see that one is often HIGHLY prejudicial, and prone to bolstering nascent prejudices.
There are many examples in modern life!

 

[Dadam]

The term E-bike is now used to describe anything from legal EAPCs up to full on electric motorcycles, with the whole spectrum of illegal pushbike conversions and various classes of type-approved mopeds in between. That horse has bolted and you can't close the stable door now. In any event it's futile to try to gatekeep language.

 

[PedallingNowhereSlowly]

I don't disagree; but I'm not wrong in calling these illegal e-bikes.
An illegally modified car is still a car.

"Bicycle illegally modified to be an unapproved, unregistered, untaxed and uninsured moped" doesn't exactly roll off the tongue. So maybe we do need a made-up-word for these vehicles that does reflect what they are, which can be banded about?

If Internet forums were common place when motorcycles were newly available, we'd be arguing about the distinctions between "bikes"

 

[matticus]

I don't disagree; but I'm not wrong in calling these illegal e-bikes.
An illegally modified car is still a car.

"Bicycle illegally modified to be an unapproved, unregistered, untaxed and uninsured moped" doesn't exactly roll off the tongue. So maybe we do need a made-up-word for these vehicles that does reflect what they are, which can be banded about?

If Internet forums were common place when motorcycles were newly available, we'd be arguing about the distinctions between "bikes"

First google result:

The launch of this new crackdown will target those illegally using the two-wheeled vehicles to commit further crimes, those persistently involved in anti-social behaviour, and those putting themselves or other road users at risk of injury.5 Feb 2024
https://www.hampshire.police.uk/news/hampshire/news/appeals/2024/february/e-scooters-and-e-motorcycles-crushed-by-police-in-anti-social-behaviour-crackdown/#:~:text=The launch of this new,users at risk of injury.

E-scooters and e-motorcycles crushed by police in anti-social behaviour crackdown...​

https://www.hampshire.police.uk/news/hampshire/news/appeals/2024/february/e-scooters-and-e-motorcycles-crushed-by-police-in-anti-social-behaviour-crackdown/#:~:text=The launch of this new,users at risk of injury.
https://www.hampshire.police.uk/news/hampshire/news/appeals/2024/february/e-scooters-and-e-motorcycles-crushed-by-police-in-anti-social-behaviour-crackdown/#:~:text=The launch of this new,users at risk of injury.
https://www.hampshire.police.uk/news/hampshire/news/appeals/2024/february/e-scooters-and-e-motorcycles-crushed-by-police-in-anti-social-behaviour-crackdown/#:~:text=The launch of this new,users at risk of injury.

https://www.hampshire.police.uk/news/hampshire/news/appeals/2024/february/e-scooters-and-e-motorcycles-crushed-by-police-in-anti-social-behaviour-crackdown/#:~:text=The launch of this new,users at risk of injury.
I've also seen "Electric motorcycles" used by the police. Easy, isn't it?? :-)

 

[classic33]

First google result:



https://www.hampshire.police.uk/new...e launch of this new,users at risk of injury.
I've also seen "Electric motorcycles" used by the police. Easy, isn't it?? :-)
https://www.hampshire.police.uk/new...e launch of this new,users at risk of injury.

Saw my first electric motorbike years ago. It's owner pulled up alongside me as I was cycling to work one morning.
He'd decided to buy an electric one due to where he worked, and the hours he worked.

Now electric motorbikes, which look nothing like that first electric motorbike seen, are appearing on more streets.

You want an idea of where to go from a legal standpoint, take a look at Ireland's take on the situation.

 

[matticus]

In any event it's futile to try to gatekeep language.

Nonsense. Society judges certain language very harshly.

On this very forum we are - quite reasonably - not allowed to use many unpleasant, outdated terms for minorities. (and indeed many profanities).

 

[mjr]

So these are not retrofitted bicycles then?
It is possible for two different facts to be true. At the risk of stating the obvious again, they are both electrically powered bicycles, hence e-bike and unapproved/unregisted/unlicensed and uninsured mopeds. The fact they are bicycles is why it is such a problem for us.

Now can we please move on from splitting hairs?

No, at the point they exceeded the permissions for assistance, they became motorbikes even if they are built on a bicycle frame. This is not splitting hairs. This is the crux of the offence. They are unapproved, uninsured, untaxed, untested motorbikes. It makes little sense to call them bicycles with any adjective because pedal cycles don't need most of those and the approval is different. It's also very unhelpful to cycling, so I really wish cyclists didn't.

 

[matticus]

The general public is quite able to understand that motorbikes and pedal cycles are different things.

Of course e-bikes move one category slighty closer to the other, but that doesn't mean it's sensible to just munge them together willy-nilly!
It's almost like some journalists are aware that the confusion will generate extra clicks ... surely not ...

 

[PedallingNowhereSlowly]

If you want to be pedantic, you are both calling them motorbikes which they are not; in terms of their characteristics and performance they are closer to mopeds. Calling them motorbikes is equally disingenious.

Further more, e-bike just means electric bike. It's non-specific. It doesn't necessarily mean EAPC, e-bicycle, e-motobike.

There are four classifications of e-bikes.

EAPC
S-Pedelec
E-Moped
E-Motobike

And all but the first require registration, insurance etc.

One source: https://www.gov.uk/electric-bike-rules
There are many others that say the same thing.

Legally, the correct general term is e-bike.