Increase in seizures of illegal ebikes

[Dogtrousers]

Reported in various places. Here's a random link.

https://news.sky.com/story/e-bike-seizures-surge-as-police-take-death-traps-off-the-streets-13220763

I wonder why that is. Have police devoted more resources to it?

They are so common it must be like shooting fish in a barrel. I can't see that the increase in seizures is likely to be related to an increase in numbers because they are almost ubiquitous. If the police had the time and inclination they could spend all day every day doing nothing else (I'm not suggesting they do btw ) and it would still have no noticeable impact.

 

[wiggydiggy]

Good.

 

[mjr]

Reported in various places. Here's a random link.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/news.s...ice-take-death-traps-off-the-streets-13220763

That's no random link: it's a filthy Google tracker.

Yes, almost certainly extra police effort rather than any increase in the homebrew motorbikes. They could visit any takeaway district and seize a half-dozen immediately and most riders would be back tomorrow with new ones and the main effect will be to ruin some precarious workers. While the market is structured to favour illegal DIY motorbikes, the police are shooting fish in an avalanche of fish. Great for their crime stats but solves nothing.

 

[wiggydiggy]

That's no random link: it's a filthy Google tracker.

Yes, almost certainly extra police effort rather than any increase in the homebrew motorbikes. They could visit any takeaway district and seize a half-dozen immediately and most riders would be back tomorrow with new ones and the main effect will be to ruin some precarious workers. While the market is structured to favour illegal DIY motorbikes, the police are shooting fish in an avalanche of fish. Great for their crime stats but solves nothing.

Please don't turn this into a 'poor takeaway workers' issue. People have been collecting and delivering takeaway food without the use of Illegal E-Motorbikes for a long time, I don't see why we should accept their use now.

 

[presta]

I wonder why that is. Have police devoted more resources to it?

Probably. Road injury stats vary according to how many police are available for pen pushing.

 

[I like Skol]

Great for their crime stats but solves nothing.

How so? Surely if illegal electric bike users know there is a high risk their vehicles will be confiscated then they will either use legal ebikes or actually turn to registered and insured motorised vehicles? If there is no enforcement then there is no incentive to remain on the right side of the law.

 

[ebikeerwidnes]

Round here nearly all the illegal ebike deliveries have moved onto car deliveries

no idea why - there are a lot of take-aways and a lot of dense housing so it would appear ideal for cheap conversions

but they have all gone - pretty much anyway

no idea why

But I also don;t see that many clearly illegal ebikes (or e-scooter) of any kind - and most are ridden reasonably (if not totally legally at time

main cycling problem is you average teenager doing wheelies down the road on a normal bike!

 

[Dogtrousers]

How so? Surely if illegal electric bike users know there is a high risk their vehicles will be confiscated then they will either use legal ebikes or actually turn to registered and insured motorised vehicles? If there is no enforcement then there is no incentive to remain on the right side of the law.

Quite so. It's important to send the message even if it only reduces the problem by 0.00001%

A while ago I was reading about someone who had had an e-wotsit (bike or scooter) seized and I felt a bit of sympathy for the fact that that they seemed to be quite ignorant of the laws and surprised at what had happened. Now it's not an excuse but it's an inevitable outcome if there's no visible enforcement. People will see others doing something with impunity and assume it must be OK.

A bit like those naughty cyclists who ride at night without the legally required pedal reflectors

 

[mjr]

Please don't turn this into a 'poor takeaway workers' issue. People have been collecting and delivering takeaway food without the use of Illegal E-Motorbikes for a long time, I don't see why we should accept their use now.

Show me where I said we should accept their use? That market needs intervention to stop it encouraging use of all sorts of illegal vehicles. Targetting the illegal motorbikes will probably see some switch to illegal car driving instead, which is less obvious a target but a far bigger threat to others.

How so? Surely if illegal electric bike users know there is a high risk their vehicles will be confiscated then they will either use legal ebikes or actually turn to registered and insured motorised vehicles? If there is no enforcement then there is no incentive to remain on the right side of the law.

Oh that's almost cute! Short-term crackdowns are not general enforcement and so people will still not estimate that the risk of being caught is high. Also, if the crackdowns are primarily on e-motorbikes, it will seem to some that any car is a good move, whether or not they are insured to drive it or even hold a valid UK licence: anything that doesn't ping ANPR will be good enough. An illegal rider with a branded cube backpack is pretty visible and identifiable, an easy target. Illegal drivers with cubes in the footwells are much less obvious.

Things should be restructured to remove most incentives to use the illegal bikes. As well as intervening in the takeaway market, government should be setting traffic lights to give green waves at legal bike average speeds (so faster ones get red lights, which need policing anyway) and things like that.

 

[ebikeerwidnes]

Can anyone say (Drago spring to mind) what the Police have to do to confirm that an ebike is illegal to a point where they can confiscate it for further investigation?

If sounds easy - but I suspect it is less easy than it appears

I would presume standard "off the shelf" ebikes (like mine) would just need a quick look for the manufacturers plate
and a quick look for obvious "cheat" devices and it could be allowed to go on its way

I'm not even sure how (or even if) a DIY conversion can become legal as the regs seem to say you need a plate/sticker and any numpty could get one of them

 

[presta]

"Forces across the UK confiscated 937 e-bikes in the year to 11 August, according to Freedom of Information figures - compared with 511 recorded during the previous 12 months."

Numerators with no denominator are all but useless. If there were enough data to see whether or not the police are just p!ssing in the wind it might inform a decision about whether restricting the bikes at source is a more productive measure.

 

[mjr]

I'm not even sure how (or even if) a DIY conversion can become legal as the regs seem to say you need a plate/sticker and any numpty could get one of them

Summary of the stickers or "plate": https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...formation-sheet#information-about-the-vehicle

I suspect the easiest seizures are probably those which:
1. are totally lacking both plate and stickers;
2. have pedals which are not capable of propelling the vehicle (no chain, most likely);
3. have an obvious "off-road" switch;
4. approached the officer at way over 15.5mph under motor power, measured on a radar gun, probably verified later on rollers.

I think any of those would make it a moped or motorbike.

It might be easy to put on stickers, but I bet most numpties don't bother.

 

[Dadam]

Not a plate. All the ones I've seen have a sticker at most and I can't even find the sticker on my 100% unmodified, purchased-at-reputable-bike-shop Cube eMTB, so it's either not got one externally visible or it's fallen off, like the plastic Bosch logo plate "held" by double sided tape keeps doing.
I tried once to understand the legal framework for DIY conversions and completely lost the plot. There's a long thread on the pedelecs forum but it seems to be based on a chain of exemptions, interpretations and just plain grey areas.

 

[mjr]

Not a plate. All the ones I've seen have a sticker at most and I can't even find the sticker on my 100% unmodified, purchased-at-reputable-bike-shop Cube eMTB, so it's either not got one externally visible or it's fallen off, like the plastic Bosch logo plate "held" by double sided tape keeps doing.

If it's never had one, I question the reputation of that bike shop! Presumably at least the "Cube" sticker is still there?

I tried once to understand the legal framework for DIY conversions and completely lost the plot. There's a long thread on the pedelecs forum but it seems to be based on a chain of exemptions, interpretations and just plain grey areas.

The legal framework looks very simple. It does leave big grey areas, so the safest thing is to stick to the government's interpretation unless you really like arguing with policeman. I find that sort of thing really slows down journeys, so I'd just make and fit some of the stupid stickers for mph and W.

 

[fossyant]

Can anyone say (Drago spring to mind) what the Police have to do to confirm that an ebike is illegal to a point where they can confiscate it for further investigation?

If sounds easy - but I suspect it is less easy than it appears

I would presume standard "off the shelf" ebikes (like mine) would just need a quick look for the manufacturers plate
and a quick look for obvious "cheat" devices and it could be allowed to go on its way

I'm not even sure how (or even if) a DIY conversion can become legal as the regs seem to say you need a plate/sticker and any numpty could get one of them

There are published rules, but a 'chipped' eMTB is unlikely to get caught. I suspect the police can only really go for those that are travelling in excess of the speed limit (or much faster than other cyclists) and aren't pedalling it. Some are very obvious, taped on batteries, or those that actually look like motorbikes.