Imagine a world where we don't all have the right to drive...

[Yellow Saddle]

Consumerism is a huge issue, I went into a supermarket the other day, they were selling strawberries, in February! why? why should anyone 'need' to eat strawberries in February, (why anybody would want to eat them at all is another question)

That's how world markets work.

I produce, very efficiently, something in the opposite hemisphere from you. I sell it to you when your hemisphere can't produce it.
It is called trade. It makes both parties more prosperous and it distributes wealth. It develops nations, it decreases poverty and fosters progress.

Don't buy into the silly agenda of BBC greenies.

 

[Andy in Germany]

Here we go again...

Electric cars are the answer, as long as we can somehow rewrite laws of physics.

Nuclear is cheapest, as long as the state underwrites it, and funds the clean up of nuclear power stations. It amazes me how easily this point is kept quiet. Nuclear power reactors have a limited life, it seems to be about fifty years. I looked up the clean up times for Douneray and they reckon it will take centuries before it's 'clean', ie: the nuclear material has been taken "somewhere else" and forgotten about. And all this costs money, which somehow isn't factored into the cost estimates, just quietly subsidised by the tax payer, while governments claim renewable energy is "too expensive"

Also not commonly mentioned by the nuclear industry is that Uranium is also a finite resource, and 'peak uranium' is also a possibility.

And as for Germany having the "Dirtyest energy"... Bless...

And why on earth is it 'doom and gloom' to suggest that we may not be able to use an unpleasant, dangerous and wasteful form of transport forever? Is the thought of liveable cities so depressing?

 

[raleighnut]

Naaah. Name one incident where the waste rods went bang. There is no danger in well-managed waste storage.

Wind/wave and tidal is much more expensive and currently subsidised with your tax money. Wind is terrible for reliability. When there's no wind, they have to burn fossil fuels. For every megawat of wind capacity, you need a megawat of quick-fire fossil fuel capacity. That's two plants per plant. It is stupid. Germany followed that route and now has the most expensive, dirtiest electricity in Europe. France in contrast, went nuclear and is bathed in excess and much less emissions.

Spent fuel rods don't go bang however they are refined/reprocessed into stuff that does go bang.

 

[Drago]

The necessary market forces are there. The move is towards electric. If you don't believe me, just ask Honda, Nissan and JLR workers what's happening. Going electric by itself isn't a solution, of course, I know that. It merely moves the pollution elsewhere. We now have to solve the problem of generating clean reliable electricity in absolute abundance. The technology for that is there - nuclear - but there's no ideological appetite for that at present. The powers that be are still stuck on renewables, which isn't the solution it presents itself as.

There is no need to live in a pit of doom.

The move to electric vehicles solves nothing. Cradle to grave, from digging the raw materials out of the ground to final recycling, they're more polluting than small, lightweight petrol cars that already exist.

And how is raping the planet to build a Nissan Leaf and then driving it around with 4 empty seats helping anyone or anything?

The consumer populace, and to a large extent the media, are fixated by these miracles of technology that are nothing of the sort. Only immediate, massive and worldwide societal changes are going to ensure the planet remains capable of supporting human civilisation or even human life beyond the next 150 years or so.

Doom and gloom is what is going to happen writ large, and simply complaining about doom and gloom wont make it any less painful when it arrives.

 

[Yellow Saddle]

Spent fuel rods don't go bang however they are refined/reprocessed into stuff that does go bang.

If you are referring to projectiles, your point is weak. We can make anything go bang.

 

[KneesUp]

Don't buy into the silly agenda of BBC greenies.

Could you explain what this bit means please?

 

[Moodyman]

As is always the case, the best all round solution is to meet in between two extremes. The proverbial middle ground.

 

[derrick]

What happens if you want to go on holiday?

You have to prove you deserve one first.

 

[Andy in Germany]

The move to electric vehicles solves nothing. Cradle to grave, from digging the raw materials out of the ground to final recycling, they're more polluting than small, lightweight petrol cars that already exist.

And how is raping the planet to build a Nissan Leaf and then driving it around with 4 empty seats helping anyone or anything?

The consumer populace, and to a large extent the media, are fixated by these miracles of technology that are nothing of the sort. Only immediate, massive and worldwide societal changes are going to ensure the planet remains capable of supporting human civilisation or even human life beyond the next 150 years or so.

Doom and gloom is what is going to happen writ large, and simply complaining about doom and gloom wont make it any less painful when it arrives.

Added to this, there is no way we can replace the car fleet with electric cars, even if every town had a nuclear reactor (which it can't because there isn't enough uranium to go around)

We already have the technology to solve our transport and pollution issues, and far from being "Doom and gloom" they improve our quality of life in the process: the most pleasant places to live and work are the places where (most people) don't need a car. Many of the most productive farms in the world use few or no machines.

I think Technology has become a sort of secular god for our society: it is becoming the saviour that will make everything better, and solve all our problems. It's even described using religious terms: You've described it as performing "miracles" and in this thread we see a lot of statements of faith, based on minimal or no evidence, that people "believe" it will somehow save the day.

I think 'doom and gloom' is only what will happen if we persist in trying to sustain the unsustainable. A perfectly pleasant life is possible with less consumption.

 

[Deleted member 26715]

That's how world markets work.

But who decides?

 

[youngoldbloke]

No I sell direct through a veg box scheme + eggs. And before you ask my prices are the same, or below those of the supermarkets

I'm only relatively small, but because I get the profit (not the middleman) I make a living, and can pay above minimum wage.

Very little waste.. Outgrades are recycled through the chickens.. Plus my customers love comedy carrots
with veg box delivery ve
Yes Waitrose aren't so bad.. They do make some effort for their suppliers

How would this work if all the supermarket shoppers decided to use your services? Wouldn't the roads be clogged with veg box delivery vehicles? Isn't it a question of scale? Our local village shop is very successful and used by people from surrounding villages. The street is increasingly being blocked by the delivery vehicles serving the shop, and customers cars from those villages. Maybe the answer would be to relocate a much enlarged village shop on the edge of the village, with improved access for larger trucks and a car park ………...

 

[Yellow Saddle]

As is always the case, the best all round solution is to meet in between two extremes. The proverbial middle ground.

Nope.

 

[Yellow Saddle]

But who decides?

Nobody decides. Markets just work.

 

[Deleted member 26715]

Nobody decides. Markets just work.

Sorry can't accept that 'Somebody' must have decided to buy/ship those Strawberries from somewhere to get them into a Durham supermarket last week, I'm pretty sure nobody in Durham decided to contact the grower directly asking them to send them

 

[Yellow Saddle]

Could you explain what this bit means please?

In this specific instance I meant the bombardment of messages from the media yo "buy local". Markets don't work like that. People buy from whomever gives the best deal. The "best deal" is not just price, but convenience, choice, quality and sentiment.

Products are more sophisticated than 300 years ago where every village could more or less, support itself. There is no way you can nowadays but a television set that was made by your neighbour. Further, every nation relies on export, yet they don't want to import (which is waht the "buy local" message is all about).

Lastly, when you see a message of "buy local", you'll never see a counterpoint presented.