HGVs in towns and cities

[dondare]

Yeah of course I did, and don't you think if there was a cheaper way of transporting goods around the country we would of found it.

As for freight going back on the rails...how are you going to transport it to the point of delivery eh?

Bet you didn't know this though, the M25 was meant and built for trucks so they would not have to go through London but everyone uses it, such is life.

Roads are more heavily subsidised than railways which is why road transport appears cheaper. The rail network used to be more extensive than it now is, it was reduced on on the advice of a man who had shares in Tarmac. If political corruption was kept out of the picture the railways would be a cheaper way to transport freight, and a much, much safer one.

 

[dondare]

i am a hgv driver and a keen cyclist, so what can we do to prevent accidents and improve our all round safety...

well, like it or lump it you are allways going to get HGV's in towns and cities that is not going to change.

It could well change. London air quality is so poor that the EU can fine us for it. There is currently a congestion charging zone and a low emission zone and these are likely to be both extended and more rigourously enforced, so that lorries are either priced-out or banned altogether. Why should Londoners be fined for being forced to breathe poisonous air?

Like it or lump it you are allways going to get poor, inexperienced road users.

My message is simple keep away from the danger areas and your chance of an accident is greatly reduced.

But poor and inexperienced road users do not recognise the danger areas and so are inevitably going to keep being in them.

I see everyday cyclists who in my opinion are in too much of a rush they don't want to stop no matter what, and the stupidity is un believeable.

Just earlier today I was at a busy junction/crossroads turning left (with indicator flashing) stationary on a red with cycle lane on my left and then a barrier, there was 4 cyclists one had edged forward wanting to jump the red light and the other 3 were queued up my left hand side,

The design of cycle-lanes is absolutely criminal; they so often direct cyclists to where they are in the most danger.

now look...

the first one of the 3 on my left hand side was leaning/balancing with his right hand on my front nearside wheel arch, the other 2 were chatting side by side, so looking out of my nearside kerb mirror i see the top of a cyclists helmet and his arm/hand resting on my front wheel arch, balancing if you like...

looking out of the nearside wing mirror i see some of the path, barrier, 2 cyclists side by side in the cycle lane (just behind the cab) and then the side of my wagon.

All of this and there are 2 high viz stickers with black capitals stating CYCLISTS >
PASS VEHICLE ON RIGHT
DO NOT PASS ON LEFT

a no entry sign underneath that sits on the nearside rear bumper bar indicating do not go up here, and a green arrow on the offside rear bumper indicating safe to pass up here...

WHY, WHY, WHY, WHY, WHY were they even there in the first place ?

Are you asking why they were on the road, or waiting at a red traffic light, or why they were in the cycle-lane? Which of these is wrong?

i'm sorry but they were clearly in the wrong place they were in the danger area, even if i was going straight on they were in the wrong place.

These cyclists we speak of and i am not saying anybody here, but less experienced cyclists are a danger to themselves and need training it is as simple as that.

The law does not require cyclists to be trained to stay alive. It requires drivers to be trained to use their vehicles without endangering others.

They need to Keep out of our way and well away to the front or the rear NOT the sides it is just too dangerous, I would say that in these recent fatalities i would bet that the cyclist was in the wrong 85-90% of the time and HGV's are very unforgivving in terms of HGV vs BIKE

What do you know about these recent fatalities that you can apportion blame?

There are some top notch cyclists out there including myself (ahem) which i am sure some if not most of the members on this forum are, lets share the road safely and lets use a bit of forward thinking and common sense.

HGV class 1 or 2 and bus...CYCLISTS KEEP OUT OF THE WAY. IT IS DANGEROUS.

Where do i see the level of blame ? 85% cyclist 15% driver.

Again, what do you know that allows you to make this assumption?
Also, buses aren't a problem, because the cabs are designed so that the driver can see to the left.

another thing as well, the driver does not want the death of a cyclist/pedestrian/anyone for that matter on his conscience, we all have families and loved ones too and we dont want to see no harm to any of you or our own.

so lets drop the "lets jump on the wagon driver" shall we ?

You have just driven 56 mph for 4 hours its rainy and windy visability is not so good, the road surface is slippy and theres a bit of mist on your mirrors,

so send the freight by rail which is safer

you pull up at a junction to find 4 cyclists 1 is at the front trying to jump the red........


get the picture ?

as you describe it, waiting in a cycle-lane for the light to change

KEEP AWAY AND USE COMMON SENSE.

And keep intrinsically unsafe vehicles off the road altogether.

 

[Origamist]

I have not but a good few times I've been behind a truck when it's turned left. Not wanting do go up the nearside.

I do remember when I was in London a few years ago being a bit of a clever dick I rode about halfway down the side of the trailer and stopped. Lights went green he turned left the trailer missed me though but it was close. That it why I say, always behind or in front at a junction or red light, never down the nearside.

Lee, you would be far better to be behind a HGV at lights, not in front. If I am at the front of the queue and a HGV pulls along side, I do my best to make sure the driver has seen me.

It is sound advice to stay behind HGVs, tippers, cement mixers etc and most of the time, this is not a problem. Whilst vigilance and spatial awareness will not grant you immunity from left hooks, they will go a long way to make you safer.

 

[zimzum42]

It's all very well saying send freight by rail, but you'll still need trucks to get it into cities, and there will always be tippers and cement mixers in cities with the building work going on....

The stuff that could be done with rail is motorway stuff anyway, would make fukk all difference to cycle casualties putting freight on rail

 

[Origamist]

It's telling that so many on here think that cyclists are never to blame and that drivers should assumed to be at fault/negligent etc....

There's people on both sides unhelpfully apportioning blame or conjuring up statistics with only the flimsiest of circumstantial or anecdotal evidence.

 

[BentMikey]

It's telling that so many on here think that cyclists are never to blame and that drivers should assumed to be at fault/negligent etc....

Who is saying that? Certainly not me.

The evidence is fairly clear that it's mostly drivers to blame in cyclist/motor vehicle collisions. But not always. Even dondare isn't saying that cyclists are never to blame, he only wants to put more responsibility on the HGV driver, which seems quite fair given the danger they bring to others.

Oh, and I think something we're all forgetting is that HGV-caused cyclist deaths are hugely over-represented by construction HGVs such as tippers and cement mixers, and much less so artics, for example.

 

[zimzum42]

It's a general feeling you get reading this forum, cyclists=good, drivers=bad...

DonDare may want them to take more responsibility, but as ever we're getting the stupid 'ban HGVs from city centre roads' argument...

So how exactly are we going to build things? At night? complaints over noise...
Bring cement in in wheelbarrows?

 

[Origamist]

Yes I know, I was just highlighting furthur still the problem of being on a drivers nearside.

And it's advice worth reiterating, but on Cyclechat, you're preaching to the converted (by and large) - what we need is much better ansd wider dissemination of HGV cycling strategies for the 100000s who cycle each day.

Here's something constructive:

http://www.movingtargetzine.com/art...authority-takes-action-to-reduce-lorry-deaths

 

[BentMikey]

You're confused - that is referring to cyclists in general. The cyclists on here will almost all know how to ride around HGVs, a much smaller sub-section.

 

[Origamist]

Are you sure? because the feeling I'm getting especially from people like dondare is most cyclists HAVE NOT got a clue on how to ride a bike within the vicinity of a truck. You only have to look at the post of the other driver who had 3 cyclists down his nearside when waiting at a red light. Yeah these are all converted? you reckon, the people that died, they knew what they was doing right?

I was talking about Cylechat members and I put in brackets (by and large) - conveniently you seemed to have ignored this when talking about 3 unidentified cyclists...

I do not know how Dondare rides in relation to HGVs, and on the basis of his posts in this thread I am not in a position to know - neither are you for that matter. If Don reappears on this thread, he can reply to your speculation.

The conjecture about the dead cyclists is inappropriate, Lee. We do not know the full details of the incidents.

The thing is as well, it's not about awareness or even ability surely it is just common sense. But apparently not.

If you are not aware of a HGV how can you use common sense?! Awareness of a HGV's potential paths/movements are critical - and as such it is important to monitor the whereabouts of a large vehicle when they approach from behind and are about to pass, for example

 

[BentMikey]

LOL, yes, you've still missed the point. Do you not realise that most of the cyclists on here are amongst the more educated and experienced ones? Those few members that aren't will quickly learn from the posts and discussions on here.

I doubt very much that more than a tiny fraction of a percent of UK cyclists are on this forum, and almost definitely not the ones you're complaining most about with your HGV driving experience.

 

[BentMikey]

Having seen dondare's posts over the years, I think it would be safe to bet that he's amongst the better and more switched on cyclists, as well as one of the more experienced. Your abuse of him is just because you have a bias for HGV drivers, and don't like the element of truth in his posts.

 

[dodgy]

I actually drive a truck for a living and always look out for cyclists and other road users.

It is just unfortunate that when something that can weigh up to 44 tonnes hit you, you are gonna know about it this is why the accident to death ratio for cyclists is so high.

I think in general though HGV drivers attitudes towards cyclists is sound. HGV drivers viewhttp://trucknetuk.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=34776&highlight=cyclists
http://trucknetuk.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=33935&highlight=cyclist

In that second link there is a guy who claims to be a cyclist (I can just imagine it) who reckons cyclists shouldn't be on the road, especially the lycra clad ones apparently.
But yes on the whole they seem like a sensible bunch on there.
Dave.

 

[dondare]

The roads are intended to be safe. Almost all of the laws, regulations and restrictions on vehicles and their drivers are intended to maintain that safety, the only one that is intended to force people to protect themselves is the one concerning seat belts.
(This does not include motorways or railways.)
Saying that cyclists ought to be trained to avoid the dangerous behaviour of other road-users is an opinion but it is not what the law says.
Artics (like the one involved in the most recent accident in which a cyclist was killed) use the entire road to turn in, with the cab and the trailer taking different paths and the driver not being in a position to see whether the road is clear or not. These should not be used in towns.
Smaller HGVs could be as safe as ordinary buses with a re-design of the cab and better driver training. Recent accidents have been caused by drivers not seeing what they should have been able to see had they been bothering to look. These vehicles are more often than not driven very aggressively with much unneccessary and unsafe overtaking, unsignalled lane-changes and turns, speeding and hard braking and a lack of consideration for anyone else at all.

 

[rootes]

after having to drive around london delivery things in a 7.5tonner box van whilst a student - driving in london is a serious challenge in anything bigger than a car....

trucks have nice big mirrors BUT lots of blind spots and you have to take corner differently to cars to account for length and width... moving over right before turning left to clear a corner seems to confuse road users behind..

perhaps they shoudl offer out drives in wagons so people can see what they are like to drive (see there was something in the metro on a similar vein)