HGVs in towns and cities

[Origamist]

Not in this instance, if Emma was already there then the driver would have seen her and stopped short.

However she tried going up the nearside...in most cases of this type of incident it is the cyclist undertaking the truck while it is waiting at a red light, yes? therefore the onus is on the cyclist. Highway code no 73.

If he had been checking his nearside (hazard perception) he would have seen the cyclist - she was visible for more than 30 secs. How can you keep saying the onus is only on the cyclist?

 

[BentMikey]

What I find interesting is that I have never said that, if so where?

Exactly. You've never once admitted that HGV drivers screw up, to my knowledge. Why don't you come out and admit that also happens? No qualifications, no excuses needed.

 

[Origamist]

Exactly. You've never once admitted that HGV drivers screw up, to my knowledge. Why don't you come out and admit that also happens? No qualifications, no excuses needed.

He did, in post 146.

http://www.cyclechat.co.uk/forums/showpost.php?p=421804&postcount=146

However, it took a long time for such an obvious thing to sink into his brain...

 

[BentMikey]

*floored in amazement*

 

[Origamist]

Because the truck was already there and the cyclist should have never gone up the nearside, thats's why.

In reference to my post 146, you are talking about something completely different. I'm talking about waiting at red lights, not poor overtaking. In addition I only have your word for what happened.

And the driver should have checked his mirrors. Do you not think this is best practice?

BM asked:

"You've never once admitted that HGV drivers screw up, to my knowledge"

This question was general and not context specific.

Finally:

"Kevin Clinton, Head of Road Safety at the Royal Society for the Prevention of Accidents, said: “Safety on our roads is everyone’s responsibility. Whenever we use a road, whether as a driver, motorcyclist, cyclist, or pedestrian, we need to be mindful that we have a role to play in ensuring the safety of all the other road users around us."

 

[BADGER.BRAD]

Hello Again all,


Just a reply to comments made by Gentleman of the road.


“The danger to idiot cyclists and also to not-so-idiot cyclists comes from motor vehicles which is why driving is regulated. It may seem unfair to you that if you bring danger onto the road then the responsibility for The danger to idiot cyclists and also to not-so-idiot cyclists comes from motor vehicles which is why driving is regulated. It may seem unfair to you that if you bring danger onto the road then the responsibility for controlling that danger rests with you rather than those you are endangering, but it seems right to me and it is how the Law regards it too, in theory at least.”


I take my responsibilities out there on the road ( whilst cycling ,walking,driving) very seriously and totally agree with you that those causing the danger should pay the price for any accidents/danger they cause so lets see the 50 to 75 percent of idiots on bicycles punished for their dangerous attitude to the roads as the rest of the road users are. Just because you don't have an engine fitted doesn't mean you cannot cause people to get seriously hurt or killed by your actions. This is as you have most likely heard in the passed why a lot of road users hate cyclists ,they pay no road tax, have no insurance ride like idiots ,run red lights, cycle on the footpaths the list is end less. Maybe if we were all on a level playing field people may respect cyclists more. I for one don't really wish to see cycling go that way but the arguments do make some sense !


“You mention trains and train tracks. Cyclists don't ride on railway lines and don't get killed by trains.”


This is exactly what I meant when I made the comment in the first place, cyclists don't go on train tracks because it is too bloody dangerous so why they try to get up the inside of my truck when I'm sat in traffic or at lights some times clearly indicating I wish to turn left, some times there is such a small gap that they have to lean away from me and push themselves through on one foot . I've had them sit behind me at lights ( great I think at first someone with sense) only to realise the second I pulled away they have grabbed onto me to get a free ride !


I have been doing somewhere between 75,000 and 120,000 miles a year for the past 14 years and as yet have never been involved in an accident whilst in control of any type of vehicle powered or otherwise, I'm not trying to tell you I've never made any mistakes or that there are not any idiots driving HGV's around but On my way to work on my bicycle (only 2.5 miles) I pass the same idiots everyday, I see one as I join the main road no lights ,on and off the pavement when he sees fit ,no observations, another one a little further on always on the pavement with his lights on. Then a chap who works on the same site as me, he jumps every set of lights, rides the pavement , takes which ever route avoids him stopping and I have seen him doing this on his phone ! All of these wear no helmets or hi viz and then last but not least just before the entrance to my site a cyclist who does every thing right not really a very good record for only 2.5 miles ! 75% idiots


The only solution I can think of to stop the need of HGV's entering cities is to build all retail outlets,industrial sites outside of cities, close all that are already there, never build any new houses or modify/maintain any old Buildings ,roads ,railways that should stop the need! As you would see from this you would all need to drive outside of the cities ( while the roads lasted) causing more congestion, pollution and most likely more accidents. A little impractical you may see ! And before anyone mentions using smaller trucks this would mean more truck journeys (more pollution,noise, congestion , more trucks being driven by unqualified drivers) and of course the fact that some thing 40/45 foot long will not fit on a car roof rack or your bicycle rack ( no trust me it won't)


Some of the newer towns have this well sorted as retail parks industrial site are kept away from domestic premises and roads in and out of them are all up to modern standards. The only way this could be helped and I only say helped in our older towns is through better road planning by people who really have to use the roads and have real experience of all modes of transport from Specialist HGV to walking, not someone in an office. Every junction needs to be looked at in the flesh not on a street map. As I originally stated better education for cyclists and finding a better way for HGV drivers to see up their inside ( more mirrors may not be the answer) Whilst accidents can never be stopped when people are in control of something be it HGV or bicycle they can be reduced.


I have never had a truck in 20 years(ish) of serious cycling turn left across me as I sit up the inside of it , This is because I make a point of giving them plenty of room as stated in the highway code and do not go up or sit on their inside.

 

[BentMikey]

Badger Brad, you sound like the typical stereotype daily wail reader, IMO, there are a lot of myths in your post above, also to be found in the myths and rebuttals topic in this very forum.

You say cyclists are dangerous, and cause lots of serious injury and deaths. Answer me this - how many people are killed by cyclists per year on average, and how many by motor vehicles?

 

[Rhythm Thief]

I'd be the first to admit that HGV drivers can make mistakes, and can sometimes drive like idiots. That's obvious. The point I keep trying to make is, even if the cab of every HGV was covered in blind spot mirrors and all the idiot HGV drivers were taken off the roads tomorrow, I still wouldn't ride up the inside of an artic at a junction. Because I know how hard it sometimes isto see a cyclist on a wet evening in a mirror covered in raindrops reflecting streetlights and car headlamps and effectively hiding the cyclist. Or how all the mirrors in the world won't allow you to see through the corner of your trailer if your vehicle is positioned with the tractor unit at an angle to the trailer. It isn't a matter of needing more training or more mirrors every time, sometimes the cyclist can effectively be invisible. If they're behind your truck, they're safe whether you can see them or not.
I'm not trying to abnegate my responsibility here, by the way, just pointing out that no matter how much training HGV drivers get, cyclists will continue to die or be injured if they continue to ride up the inside of lorries. I don't like it either, but there it is.

 

[BentMikey]

And now I can kick myself for not mentioning your enlightened attitude, Rhythm Thief, sorry! Well posted. I was actually thinking about you and excluding you from the "group", but I forgot to add that detail in.

 

[Rhythm Thief]

And now I can kick myself for not mentioning your enlightened attitude, Rhythm Thief, sorry! Well posted. I was actually thinking about you and excluding you from the "group", but I forgot to add that detail in.

 

[Origamist]

I'd be the first to admit that HGV drivers can make mistakes, and can sometimes drive like idiots. That's obvious. The point I keep trying to make is, even if the cab of every HGV was covered in blind spot mirrors and all the idiot HGV drivers were taken off the roads tomorrow, I still wouldn't ride up the inside of an artic at a junction. Because I know how hard it sometimes isto see a cyclist on a wet evening in a mirror covered in raindrops reflecting streetlights and car headlamps and effectively hiding the cyclist. Or how all the mirrors in the world won't allow you to see through the corner of your trailer if your vehicle is positioned with the tractor unit at an angle to the trailer. It isn't a matter of needing more training or more mirrors every time, sometimes the cyclist can effectively be invisible. If they're behind your truck, they're safe whether you can see them or not.
I'm not trying to abnegate my responsibility here, by the way, just pointing out that no matter how much training HGV drivers get, cyclists will continue to die or be injured if they continue to ride up the inside of lorries. I don't like it either, but there it is.

I don't think anyone is saying we can eliminate this kind of incident, but we can and should do more to try and ameliorate the current situation. This certainly includes trying to impress upon cyclists that undertaking HGVs, buses etc at junctions is dangerous and should be avoided. We should also be considering removing railings at certain light controlled junctions.

 

[BentMikey]

As for me, every time I see a cyclist diving up the left of a big vehicle, I make an effort to tell them that might not be a good idea and why. Some take it well, some get offended.

If all of us did that, the power of one would have an effect, I think.

 

[Origamist]

As for me, every time I see a cyclist diving up the left of a big vehicle, I make an effort to tell them that might not be a good idea and why. Some take it well, some get offended.

If all of us did that, the power of one would have an effect, I think.

Well, it looks like you and me have something in common after all.

 

[BADGER.BRAD]

Badger Brad, you sound like the typical stereotype daily wail reader, IMO, there are a lot of myths in your post above, also to be found in the myths and rebuttals topic in this very forum.

You say cyclists are dangerous, and cause lots of serious injury and deaths. Answer me this - how many people are killed by cyclists per year on average, and how many by motor vehicles?

I never said all cyclists are dangerous and cause injury and death, just the fact that a lot of them ( mainly those who cycle as they have no other choice and no real interest in cycling) are a danger to themselves and others, I have no idea how many people are killed by cyclists every year I'm not that sad but look at it from the other point of view, How many cyclists get them selves killed or injured every year ? If you are in danger of getting hurt doing what ever it is you do ( hobby or work) it's your duty to yourself that you make it as risk free as possible if you don't chances are you will get hurt.

As far as being a Daily wail reader where did you get that idea from !!!! You seem to be casting judgement on who or what I am rather than sticking to the subject of this thread ! Don't take it so much to heart !!! If you must know I have no real interest in news papers they all seem to report the same incident differently which means you never know which one is right.

I'm a keen cyclist by choice and just the same as the rest of the people on this forum don't wish to see cyclists (or anyone else for that matter) get hurt it makes no sense to blame HGV drivers for every accident just as it makes no sense to blame cyclists for every accident but in my experience I see more dangerous cycling/cyclists than I do dangerous HGV driving and I see a lot more trucks on my travels. If I were to single out the dangerous driving culprits I would go for the very lightly trained car driver in rush hour as being the highest risk of hitting me.

 

[BentMikey]

I'm not casting judgement on you, but on your thoughts and views regarding driving and responsibility. To answer the question, around 1 person gets killed by a cyclist per year in the whole of the UK, versus about 8 a day by motor vehicle drivers.

Have you read the myths and rebuttals topic in this forum yet?