HGVs in towns and cities

[Rhythm Thief]

Whilst the small locks of our canals and the narrow gauge of our railways place constraints on their carrying capacity, at the height of Britain's industrial age they were at the heart of a transport network that moved raw materials and manufactured goods around the country and around the world.

This is true, although you need to remember that virtually every town in Britain had a railway station and goods yard which employed anywhere between five and thirty people. For a start, we no longer have the railway infrastructure in place to deal with any freight other than the block loads such as coal and containers that we currently see on the railways, and I really can't see the likes of Connex Central or Virgin Trains being willing to take on more employees to deal with old style goods trains (which would not be lucrative - they never really were and were only really seen on the railways because until 1962 the railway companies were legally obliged to carry any load offered to them), even assuming the lines and handling facilities were available or could be built. I agree with you, it would be nice to see more freight on the railways (I speak as a lifelong rail enthusiast ... no, not a trainspotter, quiet at the back there) but I don't think the will is yet there to change things.

 

[dondare]

Although now you mention it ... we may not produce much any more, but we do import a lot of stuff, all of which needs transporting when it gets here. I work for an overnight pallet distribution network which shifts around 5 000 pallets every night and is one of six similar networks. Now, all these pallets go from being with their originator one afternoon to being with the final recipient within one or two days. The canal and railway networks are sadly just not capable of this level of service.

Canals for stuff that does not need to be moved quickly, and railways for that which does. But soon we won't be able to afford all those foreign made goods so it won't matter anyway.

 

[Rhythm Thief]

Canals for stuff that does not need to be moved quickly, and railways for that which does. But soon we won't be able to afford all those foreign made goods so it won't matter anyway.

But you still come up against the transhipping problem, the same one which did for Brunel's broad gauge all those years ago. Sooner or later, your pallet of safety footwear, your washing machine, your 26 pallets of nuts and bolts, your load of vodka, your stationery, your timber, your steel, your loft insulation ... oh, everything has to be transhipped onto ten 7.5 tonners for final delivery. Every time any load is transhipped there's an increased risk of pilferage or damage, quite apart from the increased handling costs. And If you think the roads are bad now with artics here and there, wait until every urban artic is replaced by ten (yes, ten) 7.5 tonners. Then there'll be something to complain about.

 

[gavintc]

Canals for stuff that does not need to be moved quickly, and railways for that which does. But soon we won't be able to afford all those foreign made goods so it won't matter anyway.

I do not know how much in weight a canal barge could carry, but I can propose that it is about the same if not less than a 40ft trailer. I can guarantee that the canal network would dry up pretty quickly if we put any sizeable commercial load onto it. Remember for every lock movement, a lock;s amount of water is lost from the upper network.

Transhipment and double handling of freight kills transport businesses. You need less not more to maintain effectiveness. That is why we have such large warehousing and cross handlng areas developing in middle England (Coventry / Northampton / Derby).

 

[Rhythm Thief]

I can guarantee that the canal network would dry up pretty quickly if we put any sizeable commercial load onto it. Remember for every lock movement, a lock;s amount of water is lost from the upper network.

This is true. And, even though the canals were indeed built for freight transport, they now have a new lease of life as a well - used leisure resource. If you've ever queued up to six hours to get up Grindley Brook staircase locks or The Bratch, as I have, then a return of waterbourne commercial traffic begins to look less and less realistic.

 

[Origamist]

Another tragedy:

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/stand...+cyclist+at+'deathtrap'+crossroads/article.do

 

[J4CKO]

Tragic,

I think there needs to be a tv campaign, to many people are being killed, one is too many, just something to highlight the danger of going anywhere near a HGV on a bike, just keep the f*ck away from them, if it involves stopping, then stop and get around it some other way.

I hate the frigging things, on the A roads and they come past with inches to spare, I learnt early on that if one is coming round a right hand bend the trailer moves over towards you so on my commute I check my mirror and if there is one hoving into view I make my decision whether to get my foot down or nip onto the pavement and stop, having been stuck pedaling with a trailer swinging towards me I do not want to do it again.

I appreciate the average HGV driver is more regulated and proffesional than the average car driver but I think some are under such pressure to make a schedule they take risks, then again they may just be stupid, drugged or have driven from Latvia in one go.

 

[Origamist]

***Question No: 2198 / 2008*

Valerie Shawcross

What steps are you taking to stem the recent increase in the number of
pedestrians and cyclists being killed or seriously injured on London’s
roads?

***Answer from the Mayor:*

TfL is continuing to upgrade the network to provide more facilities for
cyclists and safer crossings for pedestrians. There are programmes for
cycle training, along with major London-wide campaigns that encourage
drivers to look out for cyclists.

There are, however, specific concerns with cyclists and HGVs. TfL is
encouraging lorry operators to fit warning posters on the back of
lorries, along with making ‘Fresnel lenses’ freely available. TfL is
also working closely with the City and Metropolitan Police Services,
including the Commercial Vehicle Education Unit, who together with the
Traffic Operation Command Unit are looking at ways of using enforcement
to reduce the risk to cyclists. Also, a high-level meeting set for 17
November convened by the Police, and including TfL, freight Operators
and road user representative groups will discuss and agree a plan of action.

TfL will continue to explore ways which to improve road safety,
especially as the increases in cyclists and pedestrians are expected to
continue into the future.

 

[BentMikey]

You could just as well say that Fresnel lenses are a bit of a joke - after all, drivers ignore cyclists clearly in view in their mirrors, such as with the death of Emma Foa if I recall correctly.

 

[Origamist]

Warning posters are a bit of a joke, as most cyclists ignore them.

Therefore, if some cyclists heed the warnings, they're having a positve effect on road safety and are not merely "a bit of a joke".

 

[BADGER.BRAD]

You cannot protect Idiots from themselves !

The link from this forum at the bottom of this post helps to prove that this problem will not go away,This is the sort of thing HGV drivers (in fact all road users !) have to deal with ! Although I accept that there are idiots that use our roads in all sorts of ways, A higher percentage of cyclists don't look after there own safety than do ! What chance has any body got against such people. We could off course spend the entire day watching for idiots trying to kill them selves in our mirrors but surely this would only lead to even more accidents. If some body wishes to commit suicide then you will never stop them. The message is very simple DON'T GO UP THE INSIDE OF LARGE VEHICLES ! if you are not there you won't get crushed ! Some body needs to tell this to Cyclists. Most people understand that if you are not on a train track you won't get hit by a train so generally keep away from train tracks.

May be local cycling clubs/shops could help with this, leaflets ( the highway code regarding bikes & safety issues) with each new bike, posters in schools ,talks in schools this would at least help. Then there are the idiots mentioned earlier, fines may help confiscation of unroad worthy bikes after all this is how other dodgy road users are dealt with. Even a few signs telling drivers to watch out on there left for cyclists in areas of danger and of course more/better mirrors for HGV drivers ( one more would make an average of seven mirrors for most trucks this in itself could cause danger)

Until we get rid of the idiots riding bikes then the rest of us will never be taken seriously.​

That's my two penny's worth anyway keep safe every one.

http://www.cyclechat.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=21173

 

[BentMikey]

What about the occasional knuckle dragging impatient paid-by-the-trip tipper driver?

 

[Rhythm Thief]

What about the occasional knuckle dragging impatient paid-by-the-trip tipper driver?

Do you think an extra mirror on his cab will eliminate the danger he poses?

 

[Origamist]

The link from this forum at the bottom of this post helps to prove that this problem will not go away,This is the sort of thing HGV drivers (in fact all road users !) have to deal with ! Although I accept that there are idiots that use our roads in all sorts of ways, A higher percentage of cyclists don't look after there own safety than do ! What chance has any body got against such people. We could off course spend the entire day watching for idiots trying to kill them selves in our mirrors but surely this would only lead to even more accidents. If some body wishes to commit suicide then you will never stop them. The message is very simple DON'T GO UP THE INSIDE OF LARGE VEHICLES ! if you are not there you won't get crushed ! Some body needs to tell this to Cyclists. Most people understand that if you are not on a train track you won't get hit by a train so generally keep away from train tracks.

May be local cycling clubs/shops could help with this, leaflets ( the highway code regarding bikes & safety issues) with each new bike, posters in schools ,talks in schools this would at least help. Then there are the idiots mentioned earlier, fines may help confiscation of unroad worthy bikes after all this is how other dodgy road users are dealt with. Even a few signs telling drivers to watch out on there left for cyclists in areas of danger and of course more/better mirrors for HGV drivers ( one more would make an average of seven mirrors for most trucks this in itself could cause danger)

Until we get rid of the idiots riding bikes then the rest of us will never be taken seriously.
​

That's my two penny's worth anyway keep safe every one.

http://www.cyclechat.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=21173

Some positive advice, but it would be very easy to stereotype HGV drivers in an unflattering light too.

BB do you have any suggestions as to what HGV drivers/hauliers could do to help the situation?

 

[dondare]

The link from this forum at the bottom of this post helps to prove that this problem will not go away,This is the sort of thing HGV drivers (in fact all road users !) have to deal with ! Although I accept that there are idiots that use our roads in all sorts of ways, A higher percentage of cyclists don't look after there own safety than do ! What chance has any body got against such people. We could off course spend the entire day watching for idiots trying to kill them selves in our mirrors but surely this would only lead to even more accidents. If some body wishes to commit suicide then you will never stop them. The message is very simple DON'T GO UP THE INSIDE OF LARGE VEHICLES ! if you are not there you won't get crushed ! Some body needs to tell this to Cyclists. Most people understand that if you are not on a train track you won't get hit by a train so generally keep away from train tracks.

May be local cycling clubs/shops could help with this, leaflets ( the highway code regarding bikes & safety issues) with each new bike, posters in schools ,talks in schools this would at least help. Then there are the idiots mentioned earlier, fines may help confiscation of unroad worthy bikes after all this is how other dodgy road users are dealt with. Even a few signs telling drivers to watch out on there left for cyclists in areas of danger and of course more/better mirrors for HGV drivers ( one more would make an average of seven mirrors for most trucks this in itself could cause danger)

Until we get rid of the idiots riding bikes then the rest of us will never be taken seriously.​

That's my two penny's worth anyway keep safe every one.

http://www.cyclechat.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=21173

Cycling is very unregulated so there will be idiots cycling. The problem is that increasing regulation will discourage cycling which in the long term will cost lives because the health benefits outweigh the risks, and in the shorter term will result in more pollution and traffic congestion as people drive instead. The danger to idiot cyclists and also to not-so-idiot cyclists comes from motor vehicles which is why driving is regulated. It may seem unfair to you that if you bring danger onto the road then the responsibility for controlling that danger rests with you rather than those you are endangering, but it seems right to me and it is how the Law regards it too, in theory at least.
You mention trains and train tracks. Cyclists don't ride on railway lines and don't get killed by trains, but an HGV is the equivalent of a train on a public road. The account I read of the most recent incident indicated that not only had a cyclist been killed, but that the pedestrian barrier had been badly damaged. Did the barrier sneak up the inside of the turning lorry? Or is it that these vehicles are too large, cumbersome and dangerous to be used on public roads?
One other point, on the same day an HGV on a motorway wiped out an entire family, it's not just idiot cyclists who are killed by these things. Here's a link for you to look at:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article4983370.ece