Froome and Wiggins TUEs

[Maenchi]

If the case hangs on team Sky's behaviour being found unethical, is 'hacking' not unethical being the digital equivalent of breaking and entering and then stealing.
Seems that if the 'fancy bears' find stuff big enough that get's overlooked,( just a passing thought)

 

[jowwy]

In the case of Wiggins and the triamcinolone, it all hangs on the "evidence of diagnosis". If the diagnosis is made by the team doctor, what safeguards are in place to prevent fabrication of evidence? How stringent were the UCI in checking that evidence? These are the questions that an investigation would address.

This is why I think the diagnosis should be made by an independent doctor.

again proof of fabrication would be very hard to come by, especially as it states hospital review letters, test results (lung function) etc etc and again if the UCI signed all that off, how could you then call it cheating/fabricating whatever name people want to give it................theres too many grey areas and speculation here and if people want to put an asterix in their own head against wiggins tdf win, olympic medals yadda yadda yadda, then thats upto them......

but i cant see anything further coming from this at all and what would be the point????

 

[Bollo]

Well, I didn't like the implication of almost any chronic condition getting riders disqualified. That felt like the view you were heading towards, that sport is only for the superhumans (in the old sense of the word).

I don't know and I think that's a much more difficult decision than a normally non-enhancing chronic illness treatment like salbutamol or even a one-off PED shot or tablet by A&E for a bee sting, so I'm surprised if you don't see prosthetic limbs as justifying a ban.

When have I said that sport isn't for everyone!? But, by definition, sports at the elite level are performed by elite athletes and ultimately the whole point at that level is to determine which athlete has the greatest ability, be it through high VO2, lactic acid tolerance or longer legs. That's not eugenics, it's .... errr .... professional sport.

The use of prosthetic limbs has been banned, at least when competing against non-para-athletes - see my previous comment - because there was no systematic method to ensure fairness. And that's where we are with the current case. As it stands there are legal mechanisms to game a competitive disadvantage (one leg -> asthma) into a competitive advantage (extra-springy blade -> asthma drugs with known or suspected PE properties).

You took issue when I suggested effectively abolishing TUEs and banning the drugs that they covered. I'd be equally happy abolishing TUEs and allowing any rider to take the same drugs. At least it would end this moral indignation and dissembling.

 

[mjr]

If the case hangs on team Sky's behaviour being found unethical, is 'hacking' not unethical being the digital equivalent of breaking and entering and then stealing.
Seems that if the 'fancy bears' find stuff big enough that get's overlooked,( just a passing thought)

Isn't it more like gaining entry (in a non-destructive way, like if they left a window open?) and photographing some documents from an unlocked filing cabinet? Still wrong, but trespass and espionage more than B&E or stealing.

When have I said that sport isn't for everyone!? But, by definition, sports at the elite level are performed by elite athletes and ultimately the whole point at that level is to determine which athlete has the greatest ability, be it through high VO2, lactic acid tolerance or longer legs. That's not eugenics, it's .... errr .... professional sport.

Not said but implied and there it is again. What ability is it testing, though? Cycling? Tactics? Or genetic qualities such as high VO2, lactic acid tolerance or not having asthma? I suggest that testing cycling and tactics are sport and the last is indeed eugenics and NOT the point of sport, elite level or not.

To be fair, I'm not sure that British Cycling or Team Sky understand the difference either, hence stuff like the unwarranted continuing emphasis on time trialling in this country and the part of the Sky plan that seems to be basically attempting to hire the most powerful riders and boringly grind along at max power whenever they think others can't match them. Some of the most entertaining bits of Team Sky riding are when Froome apparently just can't resist trying shoot out or striking at a less-than-theoretically-ideal time in the hope of surprising competitors.

 

[smutchin]

again proof of fabrication would be very hard to come by, especially as it states hospital review letters, test results (lung function) etc etc and again if the UCI signed all that off, how could you then call it cheating/fabricating whatever name people want to give it................theres too many grey areas and speculation here and if people want to put an asterix in their own head against wiggins tdf win, olympic medals yadda yadda yadda, then thats upto them......

Given the past record of the UCI, your faith in their procedures seems somewhat naive... or is it wilfully blind?

 

[jowwy]

Given the past record of the UCI, your faith in their procedures seems somewhat naive... or is it wilfully blind?

naive, wilfully blind or don't really care..........either way the same answer, team sky/wiggins have done what they were legally allowed to do within the rules of the TUE system that was set out and administered by the UCI to then investigate them for wrong doing would be a waste of every ones time and money

so why not just concentrate on closing all those loopholes and grey areas, so in the future things like this would be a lot harder to do..............everyone knew about the marginal gains mantra, but also everyone knew how the TUE system worked too.....i'm pretty sure its not just wiggins/sky that have crossed the imaginary ethical line, that people want to bump their gums about. Froome also had TUEs around the same time, so why aren't people calling him a cheat and asking for him to be investigated too.........

 

[jowwy]

[QUOTE 5175950, member: 45"]I think that the fundamental problem is that the loopholes are being found in measures introduced to help. It's like tax manoeuvring -new legislation comes out to help one group, and immediately people start trying to work out how it can be made to benefit those it's not intended for.[/QUOTE]
but how do we know without speculation that wiggins/froome/sky etal benefited when there was no need..................................in shane suttons recent interview he stated that he seen the problems caused by wiggins illness after every training session.....

so who are we to judge and say he gained an unfair advantage for taking a drug that he wasn't needed? the difference with the lance case was that he sued and bullied people and gained huge amounts of money from a state sponsor after each tdf win

 

[Siclo]

the difference with the lance case was that he sued and bullied people

No I'm not equating LA and BW but...

....scuttlebutt says Sky are rather keen on the use of the legal dept and Fran Millar certainly has form for some less than exemplary behaviour towards Sky's critics, not sure even LA would stoop to the depths she's plumbed.

gained huge amounts of money from a state sponsor

Hmm...very dodgy line between Sky and BC.....evidence of shared medicines....lottery funding........it's getting awful close to a plausibly deniable state funded doping program

 

[mjr]

No I'm not equating LA and BW but...

....scuttlebutt says Sky are rather keen on the use of the legal dept and Fran Millar certainly has form for some less than exemplary behaviour towards Sky's critics, not sure even LA would stoop to the depths she's plumbed.

And in my experience, BC's HQ's standard practice is simply to ignore hard questions and shut up. I guess it's better than attempts to bully, but still not a model of openness and public service. I think the main reason there were any attempts to answer this time is that it is reasonably likely to influence the government who I think pay a big chunk of their income.

 

[Siclo]

I think the main reason there were any attempts to answer this time is that it is reasonably likely to influence the government who I think pay a big chunk of their income

Yes, UK Sport have already threatened to withdraw BC's funding.

Shane Sutton calling on BW and Freeman to "just tell the truth" is interesting, kind of implies that they haven't been. Sutton has certainly been less than helpful to BW.

 

[jowwy]

No I'm not equating LA and BW but...

....scuttlebutt says Sky are rather keen on the use of the legal dept and Fran Millar certainly has form for some less than exemplary behaviour towards Sky's critics, not sure even LA would stoop to the depths she's plumbed.



Hmm...very dodgy line between Sky and BC.....evidence of shared medicines....lottery funding........it's getting awful close to a plausibly deniable state funded doping program

team sky are not state sponsored and this isn't a BC team issue..........as far as i am aware

 

[jowwy]

Yes, UK Sport have already threatened to withdraw BC's funding.

Shane Sutton calling on BW and Freeman to "just tell the truth" is interesting, kind of implies that they haven't been. Sutton has certainly been less than helpful to BW.

but isnt he calling on him to tell the truth on whether he used the drug out of competition and not just under TUE?

 

[Siclo]

team sky are not state sponsored and this isn't a BC team issue..........as far as i am aware

But BC are state sponsored and both organisations have been slapped by the auditors for lack of seperation

but isnt he calling on him to tell the truth on whether he used the drug out of competition and not just under TUE?

I think he called for them to reveal what was administered and when.

It strikes me that the narrative is unravelling somewhat, initially the med was for allergies, lately it's become for asthma.

 

[Bollo]

Not said but implied and there it is again. What ability is it testing, though? Cycling? Tactics? Or genetic qualities such as high VO2, lactic acid tolerance or not having asthma? I suggest that testing cycling and tactics are sport and the last is indeed eugenics and NOT the point of sport, elite level or not.

OK, I'll keep it short this time.

Are you saying that genetic factors do not or should not play a role in the success of a professional sportsperson?

What is THE POINT of sport, if sport is only allowed to have one point across all ranges of ability and participation?

 

[jowwy]

But BC are state sponsored and both organisations have been slapped by the auditors for lack of seperation



I think he called for them to reveal what was administered and when.

It strikes me that the narrative is unravelling somewhat, initially the med was for allergies, lately it's become for asthma.

i am not aware of the fact the narrative as changed at all.............bradley was never interviewed by the MPs so his narrative as always been the same. unless you can post up evidence of the differing narratives you speak of

also BC wasn't paying bradleys wages, team sky was....so again no financial gain, unlike lance who gained millions